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Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 7 Num. 70

("Quid coniuratio est?")


Anguish In Oklahoma City
CN Interview With Tony F. Sgarlatti

CONSPIRACY NATION: What is your background, expertise, regarding the bombing in Oklahoma City?

TONY SGARLATTI: I've produced and directed over 400 cable television productions, including a half hour video in May of 1995 entitled "Anguish in Oklahoma City", where I took some of the raw footage from the first hours of the bombing on April 19th up to the implosion on May 23rd and show people the version of the bombing that was seen by an unprepared press. I'm also involved with a local group which provides updates on various happenings around the country that you won't read about in the major media. At those meetings, they share personal experience plus published material from sources such as The McAlavany Intelligence Advisor, Flash Point, Contact!, The Bob Livingston Letter, Youth Action News, Media Bypass magazine, and others that give you the scoop on major events that you'll never see elsewhere. Being in the cable television production business I've also become acquainted with people who have investigated the bombing first-hand and have reported their findings. I'm also on the Internet, both as a presence to describe an "Oklahoma City Fact Pac" I offer, and as an investigator subscribed to several mail lists which get various bits of information about the bombing.

CONSPIRACY NATION: What makes your ideas, your information, worth paying attention to?

TONY SGARLATTI: I consider myself a level-headed individual, having spent over 16 years as an engineer, so I think in a logical manner. And, I'm a credible person having a managerial position outside of my cable production duties and have obtained two masters degrees.

I love my country, and am saddened by what I see happening -- how our country is turning into some kind of gestapo run by jack-booted thugs supported by the Anti-Terrorism Bill, Communications Decency Act, anti-firearm provisions of House and Senate bills -- and want to see this downward spiral reversed.

CONSPIRACY NATION: How involved in the bombing was Timothy McVeigh? Was he just a patsy? Is he totally innocent?

TONY SGARLATTI: I think, from reports I've heard, that he was driving the truck supposedly containing the fertilizer bomb. There's other people that say he wasn't even at the scene, but miles away.

His attorney, Stephen Jones, speaking at the University of Oklahoma at Norman on November 16, 1995 said: "When you know everything I do -- and you will -- you will never think of the American government in the same way again." What does his attorney know that he is not talking about yet?

What most of the American public doesn't know is that McVeigh was a hero in the Gulf War. His division did so well in that war that they were assigned the duty of guarding the inside perimeter of a captured Iraqi airstrip when Norman Schwarzkopf was visiting. After the war, McVeigh was in Fort Bragg where he got washed out. His goal was always to be in Special Forces, and during a mysterious counseling-testing session prior to his aborted attempt to enter the Special Forces, his associates reported that he seemed a bit different than he'd been before... that he wasn't the same McVeigh. McVeigh told friends that while he was in the service, the Army had placed a computer chip in his buttocks to keep track of him. Reports of McVeigh's arrest, a short time after the bombing, indicated a zombie-like personality, who demonstrated little of the common sense and brains described in his military record. After he was arrested, one of the few things McVeigh spoke about was to complain about the continuing pain from his implant. He may have been involved in some type of psy-op mind control programming. His sister reportedly has a letter from him that says he was a government agent. It's not known if he was washed out of Fort Bragg on purpose, or became disgruntled, but then became recruited by the neo-Nazis. He was a patsy and had some knowledge of the bomb -- but not knowing the full impact of the explosion or if the truck was meant to explode at all. For all we know, he may have believed he was only making a delivery. I believe that McVeigh was told that he was doing a job for the greater good of the American people, and not to worry how it turns out because the government will take care of him even if it gets to the point of execution; that they will find a way to rescue him, give him a new identity and have him live like a king in South America or somewhere.

CONSPIRACY NATION: Will McVeigh get a fair and open trial? Or will the trial be more or less secret, as with the Branch Davidian trial? (Their trial received little media attention, compared for example to the O.J. Simpson trial.)

TONY SGARLATTI: I think given the attention that this tragedy has had, and the amount of suffering experienced by the survivors and families of the victims, that the American public will demand that it receives more media attention than the Branch Davidian trial. At least that is my hope. The Branch Davidians, you may recall, were totally demonized by the media. The general public would have probably protested major media coverage of that trial. It may not receive the same amount of attention ahe O.J. Simpson trial, mainly because we're talking about a person being represented by a public defender, not by million dollar highly-acclaimed defense attorneys.

CONSPIRACY NATION: How can McVeigh possibly get a fair trial? If he gets a fair trial, he would be found "not guilty" -- after all, no "fertilizer bomb" could have destroyed the Murrah Building. So they (the government, say) must have McVeigh found guilty. Right?

TONY SGARLATTI: To understand the "justice" system (and I put justice in quotes, and use that term very loosely when describing fairness), you have to understand how the court process works. Let's use the O.J. Simpson trial as an example. The defense team spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on jury selection and other experts to get as much of an edge on the trial as possible. I suspect the prosecution is already doing much the same to ensure they have the upper hand before the trial even starts. Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols will not have access to such expertise and so will be at a disadvantage. I think that if a jury were to truly weigh the facts in the case, and the defense team has done their homework, they would have to come up with the fact that a Ryder truck carrying a fertilizer bomb did not blow up the building, hence reasonable doubt would enter the picture and an acquital is the logical result.

CONSPIRACY NATION: Was this an explosion, an implosion, or what? Doesn't the debris suggest an explosion from inside the building?

TONY SGARLATTI: The most damaging evidence is what was reported over the local news and CNN [Cable News Network] the first day of the bombing. Here you had a bunch of reporters running around interviewing victims of the blast and people that were rescued, who spoke to the news about what they observed had happened. One person in particular was on the fifth floor (and by the way, this interview opens the video I made, "Anguish in Oklahoma City")... He says (and I quote), "I thought it was an earthquake because I resided in California for many years, and it was almost like it was in slow motion. I felt a shake, and then it began shaking more, and I dove under my desk and then the glass all came in -- and I think that's what saved me." If it were just one explosion, then how would victims have had the time to jump under their desks and protect themselves from falling ceiling and flying debris? The waterworks building across the street is two stories tall, and there was debris found on top of the building -- to suggest that debris came from the inside of the building, as does other debris found around the building facing toward the street, not away from the truck.

In mid-May of 1995, retired Brigadier General Benton K. Partin, an explosives expert, wrote a letter to Oklahoma Senator Donald Nickles stating that "the damage pattern on the reinforced concrete superstructure could not possibly have been attained from the single truck bomb without supplementing demolition charges at some of the reinforced column bases. The total incompatibility with a single truck bomb lies in the fact that either some of the columns collapsed that should not have collapsed or some of the columns are still standing that should have collapsed and did not."

Let's assume for a moment that we have a Ryder truck filled with 4800 pounds of ammonium nitrate ["fertilizer bomb"]. At the point of detonation this would yield an explosive force of approximately 300,000 lbs./sq. in. -- that's also assuming that all of the barrels ignite and explode simultaneously, which is unlikely to be accomplished by amateur bomb builders. As a side note, the ammonium and diesel fuel have to be mixed, and the trip they made to the building would have unsettled the mixture and it likely wouldn't have blown up at all. Now -- an ammonium nitrate bomb is a slow burning explosive that is meant to be used like in mines, where it is tightly compacted and put down holes. In open air, the pressure of the blast drops off inversely as a function of the distance cubed. In other words, by the time the blast reached the first column that fell, the pressure is already down from 300,000 lbs./sq. in. to only 375 lbs./sq. in., and the column in the second row which is a part of the major blast area only has a pressure of approximately 27 lbs./sq. in.

Do you happen to know what the yield strength of the reinforced concrete pillar is? (The yield strength would be the pressure that it would take to collapse it.) 3,500 lbs./sq. in. It's absurd to believe that one of these large reinforced concrete columns would have been brought down by 25 to 35 lbs. of pressure, or even 375 lbs. for that matter.

There's also recent news on the Internet from Strategic Investment, and they report

A classified Pentagon study determines Oklahoma bombing was caused by more than one bomb. A classified report prepared by two independent Pentagon experts has concluded that the destruction of the federal building in Oklahoma City last April was caused by five separate bombs. The two experts reached the same conclusion for the same technical reasons. Sources close to the Pentagon study say Timothy McVeigh did play a role in the bombing but peripherally, as a "useful idiot." The multiple bombings have a Middle Eastern "signature," pointing to either Iraqi or Syrian involvement.

-- Strategic Investment, March 20, 1996

CONSPIRACY NATION: You have said that the crater in front of the Murrah Building is to the right of the major blast area. What makes you say that? How has this been covered up?

TONY SGARLATTI: Logic would lead one to conclude that the crater from the explosion from outside the building would be directly in front of the major blast area, which would be the third column from the left. This is the only spot where two columns were taken out and the damage was so severe that there is a hole completely through the building. In his letter to Senator Nickles, [Brigadier General] Ben Partin draws his sketch and makes his conclusions based on that erroneous data. He later revised his drawing as shown in the August 7, 1995 issue of the New American magazine, and correctly shows the bomb crater to the right of the major blast area by over an entire column.

If you were to look at an early Associated Press photograph, you will see a deceiving angle of the building, shot from a helicopter, that shows the crater directly in front of the major blast area. However, a birds eye view of the building or a front shot of the building clearly shows the crater is not in front of the major blast area but 20 to 30 feet to the right.

CONSPIRACY NATION: You have also said that the FBI confiscated security camera tapes that showed what had happened. Isn't that just "standard operating procedure"? Or will it be 20 or 30 or 40 years before those tapes are released to the public? What is your opinion?

TONY SGARLATTI: The defense team will most likely subpoena this film as evidence for trial. But the question will remain if the tapes were doctored before being turned over, or if some of the images will mysteriously be indistinguishable or erased -- as in other famous cases such as the Watergate tapes of Richard Nixon.

CONSPIRACY NATION: Sherman Skolnick says persons on the rescue team are suffering from radiation poisoning. Others say it's cyanide poisoning. What have you heard or do you know regarding this?

TONY SGARLATTI: I'm in contact with someone on the Internet who claims to have degrees in chemistry and chemical engineering and owns an environmental consulting firm. Out of college, he spent two years in charge of the technical side of an aerospace plating plant where he worked with half a dozen or so 500-gallon vats of sodium cyanide and potassium cyanide on a daily basis. He also designed several treatment facilities for removing cyanide from wastewater.

He pointed out that cyanide acts quickly and doesn't accumulate in the system to cause death or sickness later. Also, the cyanide anion is basically harmless unless inhaled as a gas (hydrogen cyanide) or ingested and exposed to stomach acids, which converts it to hydrogen cyanide.

I've heard that it could have been a small yield nuclear bomb called a SADAM. Such a device would now easily fit in a grapefruit and deliver a 5 to 10 ton TNT equivalent -- or less, that is, down to 1 ton TNT. These things easily fit into a 105 mm howitzer shell or a brief case. Karl Granse believes the bomb was shot from a missile similar to what was done in the movie "Clear and Present Danger" (Harrison Ford), that there was some sort of a laser-guided device on the truck, and the missile then just cut through the truck, and into the reinforced concrete where it exploded. (Assuming that a mixture of highly refined Plutonium 239 was used, this would have a relatively low radioactivity emission on detonation.)

CONSPIRACY NATION: Have you heard, or can you confirm, that one of the sniffing dogs at the site of the blast has died? Any idea what killed the dog?

TONY SGARLATTI: The first week of February another person I'm communicating with on the Internet watched the Westminster Dog Show live on cable. They had a short documentary segment between groups focusing in on one of the bomb-sniffing dogs of Oklahoma City. Since they seemed to show an inordinate amount of still photos of the dog, this person had an idea that they were going to talk about its demise. They went on and on about how this particular dog went "above and beyond its duty" to dig through the rubble, and so on. They also discussed its earlier work history, and how it had often saved its human partner's life. Anyway, sure enough, as the segment was winding up, the announcer said, "Unfortunately, Rover" (or whatever the dog's name was) "died of a mysterious illness this past autumn, and now Officer So-And-So is breaking in a new canine partner to replace Rover."

No mention or speculation of what the "mysterious illness" was, but I thought it was interesting it was mentioned at all, and figured it must be a hot topic amongst the dog show crowd.

If anyone knows any AKC breeders, showers, or handlers, might be worthwhile chatting them up on this topic, see what "rumors" they've heard.

Since apparently cyanide doesn't accumulate in the body, and Karl Granse claims it was radiation, I suspect that the dog died of radiation poisoning. That would be easy to prove by examining the dog's body for signs of radiation.

CONSPIRACY NATION: What about Debra von Trapp's story on what happened: can you spot any holes in what she is saying?

TONY SGARLATTI: As I recall, she believes the bombing was a result of a retaliation of the Japanese for the U.S. allegedly gassing their subway. I personally find this story a little far-fetched, but at the same time I'm not discounting anything until the facts dictate otherwise. Debra von Trapp claims to have recordings she made of her conversations with persons without their knowledge, and other evidence to prove what she claims. One slant to the story could be that these persons suspected her disloyalty and chose to feed her disinformation to see if it would eventually come out from her, thus proving that she was not to be trusted. The easiest way to do that would be to concoct a story so far-fetched that if the information leaked out, they would know the one source where this information originated.

CONSPIRACY NATION: Is the video "Anguish in Oklahoma City" still available? How can it be ordered?

TONY SGARLATTI: Yes the video is still available. What's unique about this video is that it is only 29-and-a-half minutes long, so it can be shown at meetings or schools and not put the audience to sleep. It's packed with live interviews from the scene, has photographs to prove points, [includes] the seismograph from the University of Oklahoma and Kirkpatrick Center to show there were two bomb blasts, and [has] commentary of Karl Granse, interviewed by Terry Canady.

I'm not selling the video, but instead, giving it away as a bonus to what I call my "Oklahoma City Bombing Fact Pak."

The Oklahoma City Bombing Fact Pak has most of the data we discussed in this interview in print form, including a copy of the August 11, 1995 issue of the New American magazine special report which they headline -- Explosive Evidence: Cover-Up In Oklahoma City; telltale signs of demolition charges inside the building. The magazine is packed with color photographs, Ben Partin's analysis of the explosion and the analysis of the seismograph reading from both the April 19th blast and May 23rd implosion. I'm also enclosing copies of several newspaper articles, and newsletters devoted to the bombing, plus over 70 pages of material I culled from the Internet that relates to the bombing. It's available for a suggested donation of $19.95 which includes priority mail shipping, and of course I throw in the video free.

Personal checks or money orders only. Send $19.95 to Tony Sgarlatti, PO Box 323, Hopkins, Minnesota 55343-0323. Ask for "OKC Bombing Fact Pak" and free video. For further information, e-mail or see

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Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt. Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et pauperem. -- Liber Proverbiorum XXXI: 8-9