TERRY REED / JOHN CUMMINGS INTERVIEW

Hour 2


TOM DONAHUE:
Good day. Welcome, America. Tom Donahue program. Thanks so much for joining us.

Two special guests -- they were with us the first hour as well -- the co-authors of Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA (How the Presidency was co-opted by the Central Intelligence Agency).

We're gonna start off with Terry Reed, where we left off. And Terry, we left off with the Bush family, "The Bush crime family", as I call them, involved in the drug trade.

We know, through Bo Gritz and through many -- the Christic Institute and Lyndon LaRouche, among other authors and writers and journalists -- that we, 90 percent of the heroin trade came through, came from Burma, and that the CIA was found to be involved with General Koonsall(sp?). As a matter of fact, General Koonsall's greatest customer was the CIA. And he wanted [to get] out of the drug trade, but he just wanted some financial assistance from the international community.

And George Bush's cohorts, Theodore Shackley, Richard Armitage, were involved heavily. And Bush, I guess, acted like he didn't know anything. But you're saying that his sons were involved in cocaine peddling of some sort.

TERRY REED:
Well I'm saying, and I don't want to sound like a conspiracist, Tom, because that's where I really get cross-wired: with a lot of people that allege to know more than they claim they know.

DONAHUE
Um-hmm [understands].
REED
Let's go back to Thailand for a second. I can speak firsthand. I was in Air Force Intelligence. We had an intelligence courier service code-named, its code-name was "Scatback". And Scatback was a series of Lear jets that flew classified material base to base, just for intelligence purposes. And in 1970, Scatback was "busted" as they say: All the pilots were put on house arrest. It was found that they'd been couriering, in addition to classified material, cocaine... er, heroin. One of their landing points was, in fact, the M.T.(?), in Laos -- the headquarters of Air America's operations.

So that's firsthand. Now this transition to the Bush family: I can say this: John [Cummings] and I are deeply involved right now into the ongoing investigation of the people that were assassinated the very same day that Barry [Seal] was killed. In fact, within 2 hours of his death, 4 other people were killed worldwide. We're interviewing witnesses right now. We're pulling Zapata Petroleum records. And it's my premise, based upon talking to some other people that I can't mention over the radio here, that Seal, that the Zapata Petroleum, was hauling a lot more than petroleum. Certainly, you build a network of pipelines and tankers, and what better way to trans-ship cocaine than to have it submersed in crude oil.

DONAHUE
Especially a company that was set up by, or at least we're told was set up by, George Bush in "pulling himself up from his bootstraps".
REED
Yeah. Interesting "bootstraps".
DONAHUE
How was that set up? What do you know about Zapata Oil?
REED
Well, just from their records that have disappeared. As you probably know, the material that was all supposed to be part of the SEC [Securities Exchange Commission] public record when Bush announced his -- I think it was actually shortly after his pending place on the ticket, to run for vice-President. That material was all shredded, allegedly by "accident". But we have people in Houston, right now, that are piecing together what records that can be found. We're finding a very, very interesting linkage to Mexico and organized crime out of Mexico. Zapata [Petroleum] was given preferential treatment for drilling rights at a time when they were basically, were banned from doing so -- uh, I mean American corporations were. Zapata sold an oil rig to the ex-President of Mexico. There was just strong, strong connection there. And we're getting into, John and I are making the connection [in] the next book, into what, why Kiki Camarena -- if you remember the DEA agent that was tortured to death? In Mexico?
DONAHUE
Um-hmm [affirmative]. Right.
REED
Yeah, we've got a Mexican source that's telling us lots of interesting material that I really can't go into in this conversation, but we'll be happy to, once we get it fully organized and hopefully get our manuscript out there; we would love to talk about it.
DONAHUE
O.K. Let's talk about the Bush boys, the sons. And we were just starting to touch on that and we were out of time, in the first hour.
REED
Well all I know is what Seal... At this point, all I know is what Seal told me: that there were surveillance videos and that he'd made his, you know, in intelligence parlance and police language you have what is called your "safe kit" -- material stashed somewhere to get you through an ordeal. To basically make you, as Seal said, "invinceible". Obviously, that didn't work for him.

But I do believe that with the combination of the audio tapes, that John Cummings and I presently have, a strong case can be made that they wanted Seal dead. In fact, the working title of this book is Fatal Knowledge. You can see from that title selection that the knowledge Seal was amassing, to keep him safe, ultimately led to his demise.

TOM DONAHUE:
O.K. For those listeners just joining us, give us an overview of your involvement with Barry Seal and what you were doing in Mena, Arkansas.

TERRY REED:
O.K. I met... I was introduced to Barry Seal through Oliver North. I met him in late 1983, in Arkansas. Seal sought me out -- he'd been told that I had certain talents, primarily manufacturing or flight training, so that I could contribute to the CIA's efforts to bypass the Boland amendment -- to train a small group of pilots, Nicaraguan nationals, to basically liberate {1} their country, to help fly aerial sorties, you know, fly supplies into the guerrilla warfare action, to supply their own soldiers in the field.

In Arkansas, I was part of an operation that flew guns, manufactured guns, and trained Nicaraguan pilots. Certainly it's now the contention of many that that also included flying cocaine back into the United States. All I saw was cash being flown back in. {2}.

But Seal and I became very close, became friends, throughout the course of my 15 months of training there. Barry was a very intelligent... As John Cummings said, he was an excellent pilot, a very intelligent businessman. I saw him in a totally different light than he's been portrayed, and I hope the book, Compromised, is actually giving him, rewriting the epitaph, or giving him the proper epitaph that I felt he deserved all along.

DONAHUE
But he helped manage the operation, in Arkansas. I mean, he was really the "project manager", if you will.
REED
Yeah, Barry reported to [Oliver] North, from what he told me. North provided the oversight and Seal provided the mechanics of it.

Seal had gone to Mena in 1982, to actually move his aircraft operation up there. He got in business with a man named Fred Hampton, and built a new hangar at the Mena airport. The company was called Rich Mountain Aviation, and in this new hangar was where the majority of the maintenance was done on, not only Seal's aircraft (which were numerous), but also aircraft belonging to other federal agencies, i.e., DEA and U.S. Customs, that were being modified for -- covertly -- for sting operations into the Medellin cartel and into Central and South America.

So it became a clandestine hub. Beyond Seal's operation, there was a lot of other intelligence activity going on in this little town of 5,000 people, only a few miles from the Oklahoma state line, in western Arkansas. {3}.

DONAHUE
The name that Oliver North used, the last name was "Cathey"?
REED
Yeah. C-a-t-h-e-y. I was introduced to him...
DONAHUE
John Cathey.
REED
Yeah. I was introduced to him in 19... February of 1982, as CIA agent John Cathey, based out of Toronto, Canada, and working on the illegal flow of our defense technology that was being pilfered by a combination of Japanese and Hungarian firms and bootlegging it to the USSR. That's what got me involved, initially, in the civilian side of intelligence gathering was because of my Air Force background and, quite frankly, it was because I happened to be at the right place at the right time. I was approached [and asked] if I wouldn't help monitor those efforts. And I actually did travel behind the iron curtain, on one occasion, to actually spy on them; to come back with information about their manufacturing capability as it relates to computer memory which is a critical element in weapons designs -- primarily the cruise missile technology that we see on TV today. That memory technology in those guided missiles, that are unjammable, comes from the actual machine tool industry. And most people don't realize.
DONAHUE
Hmm. What were the major undercover projects that you were involved in, involved through, over the years?
REED
Well, in 1980 I moved to Oklahoma and ultimately became the vice- president of the trading company, a small firm that was trading in technology. We were involved in retooling America. The oil business -- in Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, and southern Arkansas, primarily -- was growing rapidly and was retooling, was automating and modernizing. And my firm was signing trade agreements with Japanese and European firms and we were importing machine tools to... These were machine tools that run pretty much unmanned. The industry is referred to [as] computer and numerical control, or C&C. And the C&C machine tools had very sophisticated memory in that day. In 1980, it was referred to as "bubble memory". And bubble memory technology had actually been developed by the United States Navy. The U.S. Navy, working on a grant, had been putting together the bubble memory technology to work with torpedoes for... The torpedoes would actually turn corners.
DONAHUE
Um-hmm [understands].
REED
And, you know, not have to go straight line trajectory.

The U.S. Air Force wanted that same memory technology to put into cruise missile technology, which in 1980 was still a pretty young industry.

But the civilians had access, through this joint venture, the civilian machine tool builders had access to this memory technology. And I was sitting there in the middle of a field that, quite frankly, all I cared about in 1980 was making up for my lost time, monetarily, from my 8 years of the U.S. Air Force time.

DONAHUE
Would you say your most infamous project (or famous, to some) would have been the Mena, Arkansas training... the contra pilots? And also, what you found to be beyond just a training ground for contras.
REED
Well as far as total voluntary participation, yes.

I found the travelling behind the iron curtain to be the most stimulating, from an exciting point of view, thinking about the consequences of getting caught. I didn't feel anyone was gonna get caught at Mena. Certainly you had the Arkansas state police, and the FBI, were actually running cover for this operation! The U.S. attorney's office in western Arkansas became the "black hole" of data. All federal authorities were reporting their findings about what we were doing to a U.S. attorney that was not indicting anyone.

So the interesting part that I've witnessed is, how fragile our system is.

DONAHUE
And surprisingly, the only person that tried to blow the lid on this was IRS undercover agent, or CID agent, Bill Duncan.
REED
Well, there were more than him. But we certainly detailed a lot of his information, since a lot of it's public record and he cooperated with John [Cummings] and myself. But the local sheriff there, a man by the name of Al Hadaway... Al Hadaway and his deputy, Terry Capehart(sp?), were on this thing from the very outset, and were surveilling, you know, everyone coming and going, taking photographs and diligently giving their material to the FBI. What they didn't know was, the FBI was "in on it" and was taking their information and literally doing nothing with it other than cataloging it in Little Rock...
DONAHUE
So the sheriff thought by cooperating and passing this information along to the feds, he had done his duty.
REED
Yes! That's correct. We have secret, classified messages that I have been able to get through my court discovery {4} in which they're saying, you know, they've notified the sheriff not to seize certain aircraft; that the DEA does, in fact, have a vested interest in some of Seal's aircraft.

So you have the right hand of law enforcement fighting the left hand. {5}. It's a very interesting situation to see it all fall apart and not work as a result of the White House's wishes to circumvent Boland.

DONAHUE
We want to talk about consequences to one's actions -- especially if you go public, like you have. And let's talk about what happened to you: your indictment, your court case.

We'll be back with that, and we'll also bring into the mix John Cummings, investigative reporter extraordinaire.

[...commercial break...]

TOM DONAHUE:
Welcome back. The book is Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA. How the Presidency was co-opted by the CIA. Terry Reed, John Cummings, are our guests. We'll be going to your phone calls in just a few minutes.

The book is available (I think) through some of the bookstores. {6}. But we're making it available to our listeners. [...gives info on how to order book...]

I want to go straight to John Cummings, investigative reporter and co-author of this book. John, why did Terry [Reed] come under attack? There are consequences when you speak out.

JOHN CUMMINGS:
Well Terry, of course, has a lot of knowledge that's very detrimental to some very big people -- namely, George Bush and Bill Clinton.

But a point I wanted to make, above and beyond that, is one of the fascinating aspects to this story. And I know everyone's focusing on Bill Clinton being involved, and George Bush. But a very parallel story is occurring south of the border, south of your [i.e. Texas] border, with Mexico. One of the people...

DONAHUE
You mean our "NAFTA Neighbor"?
CUMMINGS
Huh?
DONAHUE
Our "NAFTA Neighbor".
CUMMINGS
Your "NAFTA Neighbor", that's how...

And Terry was put in play with a man, he was a young, aspiring Governor (like Bill Clinton) of a state in Mexico -- Michoacan -- and now he's the leading candidate, or a leading candidate, for the President of Mexico. And that's Cuauhtemoc Cardenas.

And he was put into play, with Terry, by the CIA so that they could set up some kind of permanent facility in Mexico for the production of arms and other activities.

And I... To me, it's fascinating that you have this parallel story of a Governor in Arkansas, and the Governor of Michoacan. And this is a man who the polls say, if they don't have a rigged election this time, could be the President of Mexico by the end of this year. {7}.

DONAHUE
So it wouldn't be stretching the point to say that many Presidential creations, here and abroad (or, to the south of our border), are... they're CIA creatures, or creations.
CUMMINGS
Well many leaders in small, third-world countries are CIA creations. I mean, we have 'em all over Latin America. Uh, as far as I know, this is the first one in the United States. But I could be wrong about that.
DONAHUE
Hmm. Interesting. And your involvement with Terry Reed: I know you touched on it in the first hour, but expound on that. Why are you involved with Terry and working with him so closely?
CUMMINGS
Because it's a story I've been searching for for a long time! Ever since 1961, when the Bay of Pigs turned into such a disaster. And it's the confluence of political influence with intelligence operations, both [political] parties being "in bed together", and the confluence of guns and drugs.

And Terry was talking before about the people in Arkansas who were trying to investigate. And it's interesting (and we have it in the book): there's a photo of Terry, taken by one of the local police, standing in front of the hangar at the Mena airport, in 1984 -- just at the time he said. In fact, it was a very key piece of evidence for me, that made me convinced that the story (this was early on), that the story he was telling me was true.

DONAHUE
Why was Terry indicted? What's the circumstances there?
CUMMINGS
Well, when Terry found out about the drugs in Mexico being run out of his hangar, he said, "I'm no longer," (you know), "gonna be part of this. That's not something I want to be involved in." And at that point he made what he thought was an honorable exit from Mexico, only to find out that certain people in Arkansas, along with the Justice Department, had targeted him for indictment. And possibly death.
DONAHUE
And, to be indicted for what reason?
CUMMINGS
He was indicted for allegedly stealing his own airplane and then collecting the insurance on it. Which of course was untrue, and he was acquitted by a judge of that charge -- after the government, after two-and-a-half years, announcing it had no case and it had no evidence.
DONAHUE
And about that time...
CUMMINGS
...decided to shut him up. I mean they were trying to close his mouth.
DONAHUE
So Terry was speaking out at that time.
CUMMINGS
No, but they were afraid. Terry wasn't speaking out at that point in time, but they were afraid he would.
DONAHUE
Because he said, "No more," and he...
CUMMINGS
[There has been contention for who will speak (above). Now Cummings interrupts] I'm sorry. They considered him a "whistle blower" I guess.
DONAHUE
Or if not, a potential whistle blower because...
CUMMINGS
A potential whistle blower.
DONAHUE
...he separated himself and was parting ways.
CUMMINGS
Yes. And I'm sure George Bush, who was running for election at that point in time, did not want to have Terry Reed talking, nor did Bill Clinton either, in Arkansas.
DONAHUE
Bottom of the hour pause here. Right back. Stay tuned.

[...break...]

Tom Donahue, "America's Town Forum," patriotism in action. Terry Reed, John Cummings, are our special guests. The book is Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA. How the Presidency was co-opted by the CIA.

Are we ready for calls, gentlemen? Or John, did you want to say anything more before we...

CUMMINGS
No, that was the only point I wanted to make -- about Mexico.
DONAHUE
O.K.
CUMMINGS
I thought it would be of some interest. Particularly...
DONAHUE
What was the time line (before we go to the calls) on the indictment and Terry being cleared of those charges?
CUMMINGS
Well, it was two-and-a-half years.
DONAHUE
Give us the exact dates on those.
CUMMINGS
He was indicted, I believe, on June 1st, 1988... That's right.
DONAHUE
'88. O.K.
CUMMINGS
And he was acquitted by a judge on November the 9th, 1990.
DONAHUE
Hmm. O.K. And obviously George Bush would have been deeply concerned about this information getting out if... He wouldn't have been President. And certainly Clinton knew of his Presidential hopes and aspirations.
CUMMINGS
Well it's particularly true, because one of the people who was Terry's superior in Mexico was a man named Felix Rodriguez, who boasts openly about his relationship with George Bush.

TOM DONAHUE:
Give us a little background on Mr. Rodriguez. Many other guests have talked about him.

JOHN CUMMINGS:
Mr. Rodriguez?

DONAHUE
Yeah.
CUMMINGS
Well Mr. Rodriguez is a very fabled character in the Cuban exile community, in Miami. He is the man, his claim to fame, is he's the man who caught Che Guevara. Or, not caught him, but who went to interrogate him for the CIA. He cut off Che Guevara's hands -- some say before Guevara was killed -- as proof that they did in fact have the Che Guevara. And since that time, he has travelled in some very important circles -- particularly in Florida and in the circle of George Bush and others -- as "the great anti-communist patriot".
DONAHUE
Hasn't he been indicted, and the finger pointed at Mr. Rodriguez by many Latin American countries, as a major drug runner?
CUMMINGS
He's never been indicted. He has been accused of being involved in drug operations, but... something he has steadfastly denied. {8}.
DONAHUE
How about the Noriega connection to Bush? Have you done much research in that area?
CUMMINGS
Well not beyond what, not really much beyond what was talked about. In the book [Compromised], Terry [Reed] talks about Rodriguez discussing with [Oliver] North and others about finding a substitute funding for Arkansas' money laundry, out of Panama. This was after the agency was threatening, agency [CIA] had decided to leave Arkansas. And Terry can tell you about that much better than I.
DONAHUE
Let me just... We'll touch on that before we go to the calls.

Terry, when did the Mena, Arkansas operation shut down? And where has it moved to?

TERRY REED:
Well for all practical purposes, it was over by December of 1985 -- the flight training aspects of it. We graduated 24 students. So the pressure was off to get some Nicaraguans at the controls of the aircraft in Central America. In fact, they were going along to be upgraded into C-123 aircraft, in like an "OJT", or "on the job training" program down there.

DONAHUE
How about the drug and money-laundering aspects of this operation?
REED
Well, by that point... See, my information gets a little sketchy as of September of '85 because, what happened was, the decision was made to put together... These are very business oriented people that are involved in this decision making, and they wanted to see what would be necessary to put together what is called a "front company", a CIA proprietary, to run on Mexican soil. It would pretend to be a high-technology trading company, as I was familiar in running. So I was tasked with putting together a business plan, to see how that would all transpire.

My direct knowledge of what was going on in Arkansas in 1986 is simply that the cash flights were still occurring when I left Arkansas in the spring of '86. It was still ongoing, but we certainly were making every effort to move the entire operation offshore.

DONAHUE
So it looks like Mexico could really be the primary training base and source of... I guess that would be the actual location.
REED
Yeah I actually moved there and lived there for the better part of 19 months. And right at a little town south of Guadalajara, called Chapala, a beautiful little retirement community. I lived there and my wife taught school there and I had... My third son was actually born in Guadalajara.

But up at the Guadalajara airport, my company, Maquinaria Internacional [International Machinery], was based to, on the surface, be trading in machine tools and high technology -- automating Mexico to get their export economy built up. But in reality, we were warehousing and storing guns, and had plans to build this manufacturing facility, that John had mentioned, down in a little town, Morelia, Mexico -- the capital of the state of Michoacan.

DONAHUE
So our "NAFTA Neighbor" will be the next Mena. I mean, that's where we can operate out of.
REED
Well, let me take the other side of that story. I mean, I think we're buying Mexico. I think what's going on here is, Mexico's becoming our colony. Our 51st state, someday, is slowly to be acquired through... Of course my background goes back to intelligence linkage, but I think Cardenas is the man for the job. I certainly hope my book does not interfere with him being President of Mexico. Somebody needs to disrupt something with the PRI [Mexico's ruling political party since at least the 1930s], certainly the most corrupt, evil political outfit I've ever run across. And I can say that firsthand: I lived there. They're to be feared.

But I'm not saying that I'm for the CIA acquiring all foreign governments [i.e., Cardenas is allegedly a CIA asset]. But I think Cardenas is the man for the job down there.

DONAHUE
O.K. Let's go straight to phone calls. Jeff, in Dallas: Go ahead, Jeff.
JEFF
Good morning, gentlemen.
DONAHUE
Direct your question to either Terry Reed or John Cummings.
JEFF
Mr. Reed, do you recall the name of the DEA agent who was tortured?
REED
Yes. "Kiki" Camarena. Enrique Camarena.
JEFF
O.K. Wasn't he from Texas?
REED
I believe he was from southern California. (I think my memory serves me correctly.)

Yeah, he was killed in 1985, prior to me moving there [i.e., to Mexico]. Yes, he and his pilot, his DEA-assigned pilot, were both tortured to death. And of course that's been the subject of a lot of speculation on what he really knew, and why they did what they did, and, actually, who was there during the interrogation. And I don't believe anybody... I believe there's some people in prison for his death. But as you recall, they released the Mexican doctor that actually administered drugs to him to keep him awake during his interrogation. [The Mexican doctor] was, you know, kidnapped off the streets of Guadalajara and brought up into the U.S. and was later released, I believe.

JEFF
Uh-huh. Well I think his name should be remembered and people should know that...

REED: Well I do, as well.

JEFF
...that he died, you know, for a cause. {9}. And -- What was his name? His last name, once more?
REED
Camarena. Enrique Camarena.
DONAHUE
Thank you, Jeff.
JEFF
All right.
DONAHUE
O.K. We're gonna move on to Jack, in the great state of Massachusetts. Go ahead, Jack.

JACK [Phone caller]:
Hi. I have a couple of quotes for you gentlemen.

TOM DONAHUE:
All right.

JACK
And a couple of questions: one on Bush, one on Clinton and the CIA.
DONAHUE
Mmm-hmm [understands].
JACK
First quote comes from Elie Wiesel -- you know, the holocaust man, the great Elie Wiesel? -- who says that the CIA should be abolished! The quote is, "The CIA should be eliminated."

I guess, you know, one wonders... The abuses...

DONAHUE
So does former President Harry Truman...
JACK
That's right. Yeah.
DONAHUE
...or did.
JACK
Anyway. Also, another quote is from, I guess the second leading man in the government, the Speaker of the House, leader of Congress, Jim Wright, when he was the Speaker from Texas. And he said that the CIA (this is about a year before he was forced out), he said, "The CIA causes all these riots and troubles and assassinations and wars all around the world." I don't know if you remember that famous quote or not.

My two questions, though, uh the first one on Bush and one on Clinton: Do you remember that, in the late '80s, that this memorandum came out about George Bush? It said that there was a "George Bush", who was a CIA agent or operative, in Dallas the day that the President, our beloved President Kennedy...

DONAHUE
...either the CIA or the government reported to Bush. Um...
JACK
Bush denied this emphatically, that he was the "George Bush" agent for the CIA. I mean, God forbid he was the trigger man or whatever. But the point is that, you know, that that was reported. That memorandum. I was wondering if your two guests had heard that.
DONAHUE
All right. Thanks, Jack.
JACK
And my question [cut off]...
DONAHUE
I want to go back to our guests here on this.

Uh, George Bush's connections. Some have alluded he was involved somehow, maybe even on the fringes, of the Kennedy assassination, and he was in the CIA at that time.

TERRY REED:
Well I have no personal knowledge of that, of course. But I think... I say this about... To address the question about the CIA: We, right in the front of the book... I went to the Harry Truman archives, the library, and found a letter that we put right in the front of the book, about Truman's views on the CIA. Because Harry Truman is the man that formed the CIA. {10}.

Now I, like Harry Truman, feel that the CIA's mission was to gain intelligence. And I think we still need that, especially now, with the USSR no longer in business and the fight over plutonium and everything else that's going on. {11}. But I don't think that the CIA's mandate should be to tamper with foreign governments. I think, as Harry [Truman] indicated in that letter, in the front of the book, (which is a real short letter, I'll read one paragraph...)

DONAHUE
Why don't you do that.
REED
It says, "The CIA was set up by me for the sole purpose of getting all the available information to the President." Period. "It was not intended to operate as an international agency engaged in strange activities. Sincerely yours, Harry S. Truman."

Being a man that speaks rather directly -- and I think I'm the same way. I was raised near his home and we're taught to speak pretty straight in southern Missouri -- I agree with Harry.

DONAHUE
He commissioned it. He was the architect of this, believing that this agency would serve the President and the Congress and give the information we needed on potential enemies or perceived enemies at that time. But it is now an agency completely out of control, that doesn't seem to report to anyone and has a massive budget. My understanding is a $30 billion budget?
REED
Well its budget is even classified, right?

But no, it [CIA] wasn't even to report to Congress, Tom, it was just to him [Truman]. If you study the history of when he took over the Presidency -- Roosevelt was such a strong President and had been in office for so long, when Harry assumed the office, he didn't trust the people around him. They were disobedient. They lied to him; he caught them lying. Because, as he put in one of his letters that I've read, the Department of Agriculture had a better worldwide intelligence network than he did! He was caught between the military lying to him, and the Department of Agriculture, which had agents in the field monitoring crops around the world. It was an amazing environment when he took over. And I think it was almost a coup environment. So he formed the CIA, literally with a handful of people. I believe it was, initially, 5 guys. And then it grew into 8 or 10. And then, of course, it just kept mushrooming...

DONAHUE
And it became a greater creature, a monster, if you will, than all others put together, or combined.
REED
But he had it under control, until Congress took it over. Congress became jealous of the fact that he had access to information and they didn't. And a major play was made to basically turn it into a federal agency. And they were successful in doing that.
DONAHUE
O.K. Let's -- and I just want to thank the sponsor. We're not gonna take the "time out" here except just to thank Swiss America Trading [...]

Bill Clinton. His involvement. When did he know? What did he know? How much involvement in this Mena, Arkansas, either operation or cover-up, do you believe the President to be?

REED
Well John [Cummings] and I devoted 3 chapters and 31 pages to a meeting that took place in the spring of '86. I don't profess, Tom, to have been in charge of this operation. I just sort of acquired knowledge, as anyone would over 15 months or so.

But basically, I couldn't see how this could be going on, at the level it was, without state involvement. After I was involved a little on the light of a year, I received an "accidental promotion" as I call it, or a "field promotion", and was then put in play with this guy, Bob Nash, who was a cabinet-level officer of Clinton's government [in Arkansas.] He [Nash] wanted to know how many flights were being flown, what the status of the training was. So I knew at that point that the state was at least "in the loop" from an informational level.

But the meeting in the spring of '86, that Clinton attended as we were pulling out of Arkansas: He [Clinton] showed up unannounced, uninvited. Bob Nash was supposed to attend to represent the state, but he [Clinton] showed up to complain about certain things -- and it takes a long time to discuss that. But basically, he was in trouble politically that year and did not want to be left with the "baggage", of the residue, of this operation, coming out and blind-siding him during what was turning out to be a very contested political uphill battle for him in the spring of '86.

So based upon that meeting and the conversation that ensued, I can say he knew all about it. Certainly he didn't appear to be doing so hard to complain about the withdrawal of something if you weren't aware of its presence to begin with. {12}.

TOM DONAHUE:
Well George Bush, I think it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, was "in the loop". Ollie North reported to him, George Bush, "Mr. CIA". He was vice-President. He was put in place to keep Reagan in check. {13}.

And so, it almost seems that the perfect successor to George Bush would be Bill Clinton, because of his involvement -- not only through Bilderbergs and TriLats [Trilateral Commission] and CFR [Council on Foreign Relations] -- but because of what he knew and to keep those secrets, secret indeed, in Arkansas.

TERRY REED:
That's exactly correct. I had lunch about 3 weeks ago with some very interesting people in Washington. One of these men was the actual drafter of what is called the "Reagan Doctrine". And he made a statement that I thought was interesting. He said, you know, George Bush would not have survived a second term. The Iran-Contra affair was going to nail him in the first quarter of the first year of his second term. At the rate Walsh [Lawrence Walsh] was moving -- which, as this man said, was with the speed of a glacier, uh he was going in a certain direction. And it was, you know, the moment he nailed "Cap" Weinberger in (what, I believe it was what, October or November of 1992?), the moment he got to the President's men, the President was next. And that decision had been made that Bush would basically not be re- elected.

DONAHUE
And Bush pardoned all the President's men.
REED
Yes. I mean, what you've got is a President that, I mean, was told to basically throw the match. You know, go out there as a prize fighter and go out in the first round. Don't fight back.

As they sat there -- and these were Republican handlers! These people, one is Dr. Jack Wheeler(sp?), who helped draft the Reagan Doctrine. And I have no reason not to believe him as he sits there and says, "These decisions were made. And [we] decided we wanted Clinton in because we could control him, and eliminate him in his first 4 years, and get a Republican back in after 4 years." And I thought, "Now this sounds like a master intelligence plan to me." So I subscribe to that theory right there.

DONAHUE
Well many of us saw that George Bush didn't campaign. There was no fight put up. He was a beleaguered horse to be put out to pasture. But what you're saying beyond this -- and many conspiracy theories that I do subscribe to -- is that he was told, that George Bush was told, that it was his time to move on, and Bill Clinton was selected at the Bilderberg meeting to be the most likely candidate if the American people... The American people still had to fit into the equation: they have to get the right media, publicity, and certainly the right campaigning to engineer this. But you're saying here that because of Iran- Contra, because of the report that was due to be released, and because of Mena and other things, George Bush had to leave. I mean, there was...
REED
That's right.
DONAHUE
...I mean, he knew his political fortune was spent. And they thought they could keep Bill Clinton in check and they had enough dirt on him, the higher-ups that run this government behind the scenes, that Clinton was the man. He was selected.
REED
Well there was a famous study done by NASA, they were studying the intelligence of chimpanzees -- you ever remember reading about that? -- where a chimpanzee played tic-tac-toe with a rhesus monkey. And the reward for winning was a banana. And the tic-tac-toe game was dominated by the chimpanzee to the point [that] the rhesus would quit to play, would quit playing.
DONAHUE
Right.
REED
And the chimp figured out he had to throw the game occasionally to keep the rhesus' interest.

And I compare that to the Republicans being in the White House for 12 years. If you stay in 16 [years], the people are gonna probably get a pretty good idea that, I mean, the Democrats are gonna field a strong candidate, probably seize power for at least 8 [years]. But if you allow a weak Democratic candidate to elevate himself to that position {14}, chances are he'll only be in 4 [years]... or less, as I think this is gonna turn out to be. And the Republicans will be back in '96, if not sooner. And I think that's the way it's gonna play out, personally.

DONAHUE
Well actually, it would have to be '96. Although we might have Al Gore replacing Billy Boy soon.

The millstone, truly, beyond "Whitewater rafting" {15}: Is it gonna be Mena, Arkansas? Or is it gonna be... And I guess Mena as well as the bond peddling that went on.

REED
Well the first money audit of Arkansas is occurring right now. There's never been a money audit into Arkansas' financial business. Uh, there's... No one's ever had subpoena power to pull back the layers of these relationships. And it's mine and John's [John Cummings'] theory, and we certainly didn't intend our book to be the vehicle to be used as a roadmap to "nuke" Bill Clinton. But I think that's what it's gonna turn out to be is, our book is already being compared to Uncle Tom's Cabin {16}. Sort of a scarey statement, but it's becoming the research vehicle to describe the behind-the-scenes relationships, the atmosphere in Arkansas (for those that didn't live there in 1985, '86). The atmosphere is captured there to understand that you're dealing with this vertical chess game [i.e. many levels]. And I think, what I've been saying, is Whitewater's gonna turn into Blackwater. As the relationship of the CIA is exposed, that's what's gonna ultimately destroy Bill Clinton, I think.
DONAHUE
It's gonna be Deepwater for him, indeed. Deep "do-do". Quicksand, if you will.

Terry Reed, John Cummings. We're gonna come back with their final words. And we can squeeze a call or two in as well. Right back.

[...commercial break...]

TOM DONAHUE:
We're back. Tom Donahue, "America's Town Forum".

Clinton is a man of many contradictions. And I certainly think that this book proves that he was a CIA asset. A CIA connection here for sure. Maybe this might be his darkest secrets unveiled. But we find many bodies that are showing up. Uh, Barry Seal, among others.

I want to go back to a final word from John Cummings before we go to Terry [Reed]. Go ahead, John.

JOHN CUMMINGS:
I just wanted to make the point, you were talking before about "bringing the American people into the equation" and the decision to go for Bill Clinton and the "getting the right media" -- One of the things, obviously, that had to be done was to silence Terry and to trash him and to keep him from talking. And Time magazine did that for Clinton at a very critical time in the Presidential campaign in 1992.

DONAHUE
Didn't he use his best friend, Strobe Talbott, his former roommate and who became ambassador-at-large and now second-in- command at the State Department?
CUMMINGS
That's the... That's who Strobe Talbott is.

And Time magazine, you know... It's astounding. A lot of people pick it up and they said, "Why did they spend a whole page trashing a guy that no one ever heard of?" {17}. And Mr. Clinton obviously was very worried. One more scandal after Gennifer Flowers and he was finished.

DONAHUE
Is Compromised the true story of Bill Clinton's political sellout to the CIA?
CUMMINGS
Well I mean, Bill Clinton obviously did business with the CIA -- either for himself or because he felt he needed to do it for his state. To me, I think of it as Bill Clinton's Faustian deal, which just about everyone has to make to rise in the political power world.
DONAHUE
Bill Clinton denounces the '80s as the "decade of greed", and we now know that he and Hillary participated greatly in that. He also denounced the Iran-Contra figures and the mission and purpose. And lo and behold! Bill Clinton pops up!
CUMMINGS
More political hypocrisy.
DONAHUE
Hypocrisy indeed.

John, I thank you for your participation today in the Town Forum. And Terry, uh I want to take a quick call here. Alan, from Boston. Go ahead, Alan.

Alan, you still with us?

ALAN
Hello?
DONAHUE
Go ahead, Alan.
ALAN
Hi. You know, I do find it somewhat amusing that both of your guests and yourself will criticize Clinton and Bush, but you exempt President Reagan from any culpability or criticism in this whole matter! I mean, it's under his stewardship that this policy was invented!
DONAHUE
Uh, I would agree "under his stewardship".
ALAN
But you exempt him from any criticism here just because he's a right-wing icon!
DONAHUE
No he's not... I... He's no hero to me!
ALAN
I mean, it makes no sense to me!
DONAHUE
Well let me ask our guests, and see what they think.

Reagan's involvement. Do you think Reagan knew very much? Was he... It is under his watch.

TERRY REED:
Well let me talk about the Reagan Doctrine. This man, Jack Wheeler, who wrote the Reagan Doctrine (which was secret, by the way, because you couldn't make it public because the Soviets would know what our plans were)... The plan was to bankrupt the USSR in 8 years. They figured out that the USSR would, in fact, as he put it, "engage in mindless, senseless violence around the world." They would get involved in Vietnam-style action as a way of promoting their own policies. And the Reagan Doctrine was, in fact, encouraging that kind of behavior: Afghanistan, Angola, Nicaragua were examples of that. {18}.

DONAHUE
One final note: On Ollie North -- Did Reagan sell him out? And also, should people support Ollie North for United States Senate?
REED
Well I... Was he a scapegoat? Certainly. Did he take a fall? Yes. He was basically the G. Gordon Liddy of that scandal. Would I vote for him? Yes. He's qualified, he's a liar. {19}.
DONAHUE
Hmm... O.K.

I hope that you'll be in peace. I hope that you'll be in good health. Because many that have exposed Bill Clinton found themselves, not only their reputations besmirched (which they try), but dead. I hope that you don't end up in a body bag.

And I thank you, Terry Reed, John Cummings. The book is Compromised. It's available through us [...] Well worth your time and read, when you have the time!

Tom Donahue, for "America's Town Forum".

--------------------------<< Notes >>---------------------------- {1} "...to train a small group of pilots, Nicaraguan nationals, to basically liberate..." Depending on your point of view, this could also be read as "liberate", i.e., that there was nothing to liberate, that the Sandinistas were, in fact, the good guys.

{2} "All I saw was cash being flown back in." Here Reed means while he was in Arkansas. When he later went down to Mexico and saw that cocaine was being warehoused for shipment to the U.S., at that point he divorced himself from the operation.

{3} Mena, "...this little town of 5,000 people..." Future major tourist attraction? See where it all happened! Bring the kids!

{4} "...court discovery..." I think this means that, because Reed was under indictment at the time, because a defendant is entitled to any evidence that will help prove his innocence, then prior to trial Reed went through a "discovery process" during which he had access to information that could be used in his defense. (Note that Reed was later found "Not guilty".)

{5} "...the right hand of law enforcement fighting the left hand." Just like our "War on Drugs", where the CIA brings the drugs into the United States and the DEA tries to stop drugs from being brought into the United States.

{6} Yes, the book is available through the bookstores or can be ordered through them.

{7} Regarding Cuauhtemoc Cardenas: He did not win the election for President of Mexico.

{8} "He [Mr. Rodriguez] has been accused of being involved in drug operations, but... something he has steadfastly denied." Then again, if he were involved, what's he gonna say -- "Yes, it's true. (Sighs) You have caught me."

{9} "...he ["Kiki" Camarena] died, you know, for a cause." Yes, he died for a cause, but for whose cause? I recommend a couple of books by another DEA agent, Mike Levine (Deep Cover, and The Big White Lie). Mr. Levine was fortunate in that he finally saw through the sham of our "War on Drugs" and got out of it while still alive, unlike the unfortunate Mr. Camarena.

From the October 26, 1993, "Conspiracy for the Day":

[BFR -- Mike Levine, author of Deep Cover (see part 2 of today's CfD) spoke at the university where I was an undergraduate in 1991. Following are excerpts from the student newspaper's report of his talk.]

Former DEA Agent: "Drug war all a show" by Paul Kirk, Staff Reporter

"The drug war's a sham," said former Drug Enforcement Agent Mike Levine at the Holmes Student Center Tuesday night.

Levine hinted that those in the DEA who come too close to the political reality of the drug war sometimes mysteriously lose their lives.

Levine recalled the time a former agent, Sandy Barrio, was accused by the DEA of drug smuggling. He died of strychnine poisoning while awaiting trial.

But Barrio's death certificate was fixed to read that he died of asphyxiation on a peanut butter sandwich, Levine said.

"I threw my life to the winds believing in the war against drugs. If I died, I believed I was dying for a just cause," Levine said.

"I realized the reality of what I was doing never quite matched what the public was seeing," he said.

Levine cited a mission which he followed into Asia during the Vietnam War.

The bodies of dead soldiers were being used for containers to ship heroin back to the United States. Levine investigated the deal all the way to the production line where he was stopped by his superiors.

Levine said he experienced such evasion techniques by his superiors throughout his career. He said he watched the values of the drug war plummet into oblivion.

"DEA was designed to put itself out of business but that doesn't happen. The opposite happens. It's always 'we need more,'" he said.

"The drug war programs are ill-conceived. All that politicians are is parrots," said Levine.

"It's all a show. 'We need more money. We're going to get these guys,'" Levine said, mimicking the politicians. "The drug war is the laughing stock of South America."

Levine said the United States needs to direct the money designated for the drug war toward domestic problems which breed the drug problem. He said he believes small community involvement is the key.

{10} "...Harry Truman is the man that formed the CIA." This is our Karma: Truman, representing us as our President, drops the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In return, to pay off our Karmic debt, we get the CIA.

{11} "...with the USSR no longer in business and the fight over plutonium and everything else..." Could explain the reports of Russian military equipment being seen in the U.S., as is being thoroughly covered by The Spotlight. We know there is a Russian mafia that is "asset stripping", i.e., selling state property on the black market. Suppose the U.S. is buying Russian military equipment at bargain prices from the new Russian mafia: Would the U.S. government admit to this?

U.S. government buys Russian military items from the Russian mafia, brings these items to the U.S., items are seen, alarm is sounded: Russian military equipment in U.S.! What will the U.S. government do, admit they bought the equipment on the black market? Or will they do their usual denials, and thereby (inadvertently) further inflame anxieties regarding the presence of Russian military equipment?

{12} From the book (Compromised, by Terry Reed & John Cummings):

Now the meeting was starting to turn into a shouting match. Terry [Reed] quietly observed that Clinton appeared on the verge of losing his well-rehearsed, statesman-like demeanor. Stopping investigations around Mena had helped the CIA and its bosses in Washington, but it had not solved any of the governor's local political problems. And these same problems were threatening to unveil the Mena operations. [Chapter 17, "New Covenant", p. 230.]

{13} "He [Bush] was put in place to keep Reagan in check." Here's what Bo Gritz has to say (from Conspiracy for the Day, March 11, 1994, excerpts only):

In Mesa, I met with him [Cleon Skaas(?)] and I said, "Why in the world did Ronald Reagan sell us down the tube by taking George Bush as his running mate?" And I really didn't know that Cleon knew Ronald Reagan rather well. But he told me: He said, "Bo, George Bush was Ronald Reagan's greatest opponent," (if you'll remember, back in the 1980 elections), "and Ronald Reagan said he would never have him. Then, Ronald Reagan was invited to New York to go see Rockefeller. When he saw Rockefeller, he was told, 'If you do not take my head of the Trilateral Commission'" (remember, the Council on Foreign Relations, George Bush) "'as your running mate, the only way you'll see the inside of the White House is as a tourist.'"

"Now, when you read Kitty Calley's junk about the Reagan family, even if one percent of it is true, you can see a man with great vanity wouldn't want that dirty laundry exposed. And who even knows the vice-President? So I honestly thought Ronald Reagan said, 'Well, George Bush will never hurt any of us. Because I'm going to be President.'"

[...]

Two months after he was inaugurated, two months is all that Ronald Reagan lasted. March 30th, 1981, two months after his inauguration in January of 1981, he was shot -- was he not? And the news said that he was shot by John Hinckley, jr. and that John Hinckley, jr. was some kind of a Jodie Foster freak. And that he came out of nowhere, and that he shot Brady in the head, and he shot a policeman in the neck, and he shot a Secret Service man and blew him back over the vehicle, and he shot Ronald Reagan. Right?

[...]

When Brady was shot, no question. Here we've got John Hinckley, jr. Oh, by the way, is John Hinckley, jr. just some kind of a "weirdo?" Isn't it strange that John Hinckley, sr. is the owner of Vanderbilt Oil? And, of course, George Bush is the owner of Zapata Oil. Was it a coincidence, then, that John Hinckley, sr. and George Bush are neighbors for years in Houston, Texas, working together? Is it any coincidence that John Hinckley, sr., when you go back through the FEC, the Federal Election Commission, his own record of giving maximum donations every year to Mr. Bush even when he started running for Congress. Well now, does that make his son, John Hinckley, jr. seem a little bit less of a coincidence? I think it does. Here's why:

When the President was shot, if you'll remember, he was pushed into the car by a man named Jerry Parr(sp?) that was his Secret Service guard. Jerry Parr fell on top of him and, I just saw in the Reader's Digest where Jerry Parr was telling his "valiant story." And the limousine tore off, didn't it? Now it was five minutes later that the ambulance arrived and they put the Secret Service man, the Washington, D.C. policeman, and Brady in the ambulance and it roared off. Using normal time-rate/distance, who should have arrived at George Washington University Hospital first? The President should have. Well, who did? You know it's a trick question. The ambulance arrived 15 minutes before the President. When asked, "What happened?" the Secret Service simply responded, "We got lost."

The Secret Service does not get lost in Washington, D.C. They don't get lost in most places of the world. And so, now the investigation starts to get a little interesting. When they take Ronald Reagan in, they can see that he... matter of fact, his heart almost stopped. And he is convulsing; there's blood on his lips. They know he's hurt... seriously. But they can find no wounds. They X-ray him 3 times and can find nothing.

Finally, a nurse notices a tiny entrance wound right at the seventh rib, underneath the armpit. And a doctor takes a probe, and by... very carefully, because they couldn't see it on X-ray, the doctor is able to extract what he said was a planchet, thinner than a dime, that was one-quarter inch from Ronald Reagan's aorta.

Now, Ronald Reagan says... as a matter of fact, let me just see if I can just read it to you... best what Ronnie says. I've got all this in the book... This came right out of a

newspaper

I knew I had been hurt, but I thought that I'd been hurt by the Secret Service man landing on me in the car. As it was, I must say it was the most paralyzing pain. I've described it as if someone hit you with a hammer. But the sensation, it seemed to me, came after I was in the car and so I thought that maybe his gun or something had broken a rib. I set up on the seat, and the pain wouldn't go away -- and suddenly, I found I was coughing up blood.

Now you see, to almost anyone else you might say, "Well, just some kind of a fluke." But I'm a skeptic. Because I know how these things have happened ever since they "took out" John Fitzgerald Kennedy. I think maybe JFK was the last honest President that we had...

{14} "But if you allow a weak Democratic candidate to elevate himself to that position..." As also with Carter. Carter and Clinton, both Governors, both unfamiliar with the Washington scene, both novices.

We have (1) JFK, a Democrat, gets killed; (2) Johnson is somehow controlled so a serious investigation of the JFK assassination doesn't happen; (3) Nixon, a Republican. No serious investigation of the JFK assassination; (4) Carter, a Democrat. Finally, an attempt is made at a serious investigation, but hidden forces seek to hamper it; (5) Reagan and Bush, no investigation; (6) Clinton. Claims to be a reincarnation of JFK, but why no investigation nor any moves in that direction? Instead, Clinton does a rare thing: promotes the movie "Line of Fire" which supports the official version of the JFK assassination. How often does a President go out of his way to endorse a movie?

Also, after the movie "JFK" came out, reporters asked Bush what he thought of it. Here's Bush: "Huh? A movie called 'JFK' did you say?"

{15} "Whitewater rafting". This seems to be a euphemism for the public perception of Whitewater (i.e. a land deal gone sour) versus the deeper complexities of drug and gun running, murder, intimidation, etc. In other words, "Whitewater rafting" conjures up an innocent perception, or indeed a surface perception -- rafting. But beneath the surface there is much more.

{16} "Uncle Tom's Cabin" A bestselling book from the time of the American Civil War. The book had an enormous popular reaction.

{17} Regarding Time magazine: Also did a smear on Uri Geller in the 1970s; also praised Posner's Case Closed to the skies; also did a ridiculous story on Larry Nichols quite recently. As my uncle used to say: "Life [magazine] is for people who can't read. Time [magazine] is for people who can't think."

{18} Reed's answering of the caller's original question is cut off by Donahue due to time constraints.

{19} "[Ollie North] Would I vote for him? Yes. He's qualified, he's a liar." Reed's last statement is enigmatic. Because time has run out, clarification never follows the "He's qualified, he's a liar."

Brian Francis Redman bigxc@prairienet.org "The Big C"

"Justice" = "Just us" = "History is written by the assassins."