TERRY REED / JOHN CUMMINGS INTERVIEW
Hour 1
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On April 27, 1994, on Tom Donahue's now defunct shortwave radio program, "America's Town Forum", Donahue's guests were Terry Reed and John Cummings. Reed and Cummings are the authors of the bestseller, Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA.
Because Donahue offers audio cassette tapes of his shows for those who wish to purchase them, I sent a check to Mr. Donahue for a tape of that night's show. Unfortunately (although Mr. Donahue did finally send the tape of another show, featuring Larry Nichols), the tape did not arrive after I had waited a reasonable time. So I again wrote to Mr. Donahue et al., including a photocopy of the cancelled check I had sent them and demanding my tape.
I waited. Still no reply. Eventually I just gave up on ever getting the tape. I was not too ticked off at Mr. Donahue because I knew he was going through other troubles at the time. I figured he was just not well organized.
Today, finally, after more than 4 months, after I had long since given up on getting the Reed/Cummings tape, today, finally, it arrived. I have just made a backup of the tape and am now prepared to transcribe it.
Before I start, here is some info that was included with the tape:
Address to write to Tom Donahue: As of July 21, 1994 Letters only -- No post cards or packages.
Tom Donahue #24979077 C1
Mansfield Law Enforcement Center
1601 Heritage Parkway, Mansfield, Texas 76063
At this time Tom does have access to a telephone, however he can only call "collect". He can't make local calls or 800 calls, just collect calls. If you would like to give your permission for Tom to call you collect, do so by writing to Tom at the above address.
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TOM DONAHUE:
Good day. Welcome, America. Tom Donahue program. Thanks so much
for joining us.
Well many "viewer rats" are celebrating "Tricky Dick Day". Um, I always have, and will, have respect for the President and the presidency -- the actual office. The office holder at that time and, I guess, the "statesman at large" -- I feel he caused a lot of great damage to this country: regional government, for one; selling out our POWs; took him 5 years to get us out of [the] Vietnam war, when he [had] promised in his first term we'd be out. He was a Rockefeller stooge and a Kissinger associate for many years, until even they turned on him. {1}.
But so much for Nixon... Tricky Dick Nixon Day. We have two very special guests. And the book is absolutely a blockbuster. It's everything it's cooked up to be. The book is, Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA. How the presidency was co-opted by the CIA. Terry Reed and John Cummings. Indeed, it's my privilege and pleasure to have you on "America's Town Forum".
TERRY REED:
Thank you very much, Tom. This is Terry speaking. [CN Note: The
interview was conducted via a 3-way phone hookup.]
JOHN CUMMINGS:
Hi, this is John...
Terry, why... I guess, whoever selected the title, it's a great title. Explain to our listeners what you mean by "compromised" when it comes to Clinton, Bush and the CIA.
So that's basically the core, the core premise behind the title.
Let me ask you about your background. Why don't you fill our listeners in, give us kind of a biographical sketch?
But yeah, I was in intelligence, in support of Air America's operations over in Thailand. And that's where I met several of the key players that would later surface in the Iran-Contra scandal, you know, years later, in 1986.
But after becoming disillusioned with peacetime military, I got out, honorably, and went into a field, a very technical field, which just by accident... I mean, I chose it, I was attracted to it, then found out once I was in it that it was full of KGB and all kinds of espionage activity. So I was "resurrected" and recruited to work undercover for both the FBI and CIA, monitoring the pilfering of defense department secrets to Moscow by both Hungarian firms as well as the Japanese.
And in the course of doing that, I met an undercover agent who was using the code name John Cathey, in Oklahoma in 1982.
Terry Reed. John Cummings. The book is Compromised.
[...commercial break...]
In order to have a better phone sounding quality, we're gonna have Terry out of the mix for just a few minutes here, and we're gonna stay with... Uh, actually, we're gonna stay with Terry [Reed] and come back to John Cummings in just a minute or two.
Um, Terry, let's talk about this [John] Cathey figure. Who was that?
But it put me in a perfect position in 1983, late 1983, to be introduced to a man by the name of Barry Seal, Adler Berriman Seal, who was also a CIA operative working out of a little town called Mena, Arkansas, in western Arkansas. So that's where the story sort of launches off into I think what is probably the most explosive element of the book.
But the Oliver North that I knew was sort of a very loose, business manager type that didn't micro-manage anything but let [Barry] Seal pretty much run the operation. And I was just, of course, subordinate to Seal. And primarily my job, initially -- I'm a 3,000-hour plus flight instructor -- my job was to train Nicaraguan nationals to fly aerial delivery aircraft, the very same type of aircraft that was shot down, that exposed, the whole Iran-Contra affair. That C-123 aircraft was the type of aircraft that, ultimately, my students would be upgraded to down in Nicaragua -- down in Honduras, actually -- once they graduated from the basic program we had set up in Arkansas.
Our special guests, John Cummings and Terry Reed.
[...commercial break...]
TOM DONAHUE:
We're back. Tom Donahue, "America's Town Forum", patriotism in
action.
Terry Reed, John Cummings, the authors of Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA -- How the presidency was co-opted by the CIA.
And gentlemen, I have to admit I wish I had the time to read 550 pages of small, fine print that's in this book, and all the documentation. I didn't. I've scanned it. Some day I will [read it.] I highly recommend it though.
TERRY REED:
Great. If I could just finish with that one thought here, Tom,
about why Clinton may have done this: You know, certainly, if he
assumed power and became Governor, he had a full agenda of
trying to turn that state around. And certainly, if he wanted, if
he had this secret ambition all along to become President, he had
a lot of work cut out for him. He had to build an industrial base
and literally drag Arkansas up into the 20th century. And I think
one way he did that is by, through cooperation with the CIA --
which we get into deeply in the book, about the money laundering
aspects and actually government, certain industries, getting
involved in the manufacturing of weapons components.
So anyway, with that said, I'd like you to talk to John [Cummings]. John's a great journalist and came to me, hounded me for 2 years, to do this book. And I finally gave in. And, but John's responsible for forcing me to sit down and put this thing together with him. So...
So you had weapons procurement, and assembly and manufacture. You had the transportation of those weapons. You had the contra pilot training, that I was involved in. And later I discovered that Seal was flying back in cash, in large quantities, on his way back in from Central America.
That's what I saw, were those elements.
Now later on in the book, when I get down into Mexico and get on the other end of the pipeline -- I was on the receiving end of the pipeline up in Arkansas, and certainly those operations that I just outlined were very compartmentalized, and not a lot of overlap in personnel, with the exception of probably me. Because of my background in manufacturing, I was able to sort of get an overview of 3 facets of the operation. But once I went down to Mexico: Yes. I came head to head with the fact that the people that had sent me down there were trafficking heavily in cocaine. That resulted in me divorcing myself from this entire thing. And I think it's what's been causing me a lot of pain and suffering ever since.
We're gonna come back, and bring John Cummings into the mix. The book is Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA. Don't go away. Back in seconds.
[...commercial break...]
If you'd like to join us, the talk line number, our Town Forum line, coast-to-coast, is 1-800-298-TALK. 1-800-298-8255.
John, how'd you get involved with Terry Reed? And, it's a mammoth book. I know you're a prolific writer, an award-winning writer. You worked for Newsday and you've authored or penned several books.
JOHN CUMMINGS:
Well. I came to Terry, following a trail that really started
many, many years ago, when I, as a very young reporter, was
assigned to cover Cuba and the Cuban exile machinations which
climaxed in the Bay of Pigs. And in the course of observing this
in Florida, I watched the CIA co-opt local officials and even the
Governor at the time, in Florida, to make sure that their
operations were not interfered with and that they could operate
with impunity.
And so I came to this gradually, knowing, you know, what the telltale signs were.
I was following Adler Berriman Seal, Barry Seal, whom Terry mentioned. Now I knew him basically as a drug trafficker. I believed him to be a drug trafficker who was a CIA asset, of which there are many -- they use smugglers for many reasons -- but it turned out that he was really a CIA asset whose cover was being a drug trafficker. And when I got to Arkansas -- and I followed him up to Arkansas -- I began to see telltale signs of an intelligence operation: an airfield out in the middle of the woods, that nobody knew anything about.
And the more I dug, the more convinced I became that, obviously, this was an intelligence operation. It was being protected, certainly, by the federal government. But when you operate in any area, you have to make sure that the state understands, and co- operates with you. And I was really curious about that. And to cut it short, I came across Terry [Reed], who at that time was under indictment in Wichita, Kansas. And I approached him and we began to talk. And I began to see, you know. He showed me the connection between Oliver North, Barry Seal, and the whole operation. At first, he did not talk to me about Bill Clinton; it was much later on. And then I came to realize -- I had seen both [political] parties "in bed with each other" in Florida, and here, once more, was yet another local official, or a Governor, who made a pact with the Devil.
Um, you mentioned before, the "virus" that bit Nixon. I call it a power trip. And once somebody gets on that track...
TOM DONAHUE:
An aphrodisiac. Yeah.
And uh, but Terry, when I met Terry, he was not like the other CIA, uh many of the CIA assets I had met. And it was very clear to me that there was much more to this story. And of course Terry eventually was acquitted of this charge, which was one of the reasons I came to believe him. Because when I first heard his story I greeted it with the same skepticism I would use with anyone. But Terry's story checked out and the things he told me were true. He was in the places he said he was. And I came to see him as a kind of a "Rosetta Stone" {5} for me, as someone who's been searching along this path for many years.
Now Terry was a witness to that, and he can tell it much better than I can. But there you have it all, right there.
But you feel both of, vice-President Bush (and later, President Bush), and Bill Clinton, were in on this? They were privy to what the operation was to accomplish?
We're gonna take our break. We'll come back. We're gonna continue our discussion, our interview. Both gentlemen will be with us the rest of this hour and next on many of these fine stations. Listen up. And we'll be right back.
[...commercial break...]
TOM DONAHUE:
We are back. Tom Donahue, "America's Town Forum", patriotism in
action.
We're talking with Terry Reed and John Cummings. The book is Compromised, and we're gonna make this book available through our organization. [...Donahue extols the book...]
Um, you have a list that your publisher sent to me: The key figures in Compromised. And many of them are the same figures we're hearing in the Clinton cabinet, and through Whitewater, and beyond "Whitewater rafting".
Let's talk about some of these figures and how they play a role and what the media should be looking for, beyond "Whitewater rafting".
TERRY REED:
Are you speaking to me now, Tom?
Uh, Seth. Of course Seth's son-in-law is Webb Hubbell, number 2 man, was number 2 man or 3 man in Justice, that as you know resigned. {6}.
But John and I did not start out to write an Iran-Contra book... I mean a Whitewater book. We were... I was working on this through my memoirs, trying to get down on paper what was happening to me as a result of my criminal indictment. And I was keeping good notes, and just sort of to have a good record, 'cause things get pretty distorted in a courtroom environment.
A bond trader, that worked for Lasater, was a man by the name of Finis {7} Shellnut. Now Finis is Seth Ward's, or was Seth Ward's, son-in-law at the time. And Seth Ward owned a piece of property west of Little Rock called the "Triple S Ranch". And that is the ranch in which Seal was jettisoning the large, large... what's called a B-4 bag in the military, a large duffel bag, that can hold about $3 million, complete with radio transmitters so you can locate it. That money was being kicked out of Seal's planes onto the Triple S Ranch. And the man that was retrieving the cash was Finis Shellnut and, who worked for Lasater. And I feel that was the direct conduit from that point into Lasater's company.
When they have a bond issue, primarily at the state bank, for practical purposes its mandate was to attract and finance industry for Arkansas. What it became was a vehicle to loan money to friends of Bill Clinton and a way to get quiet "campaign contributions" [a.k.a. "bribes"] back, as L. J. Davis pointed out in his article. I believe it was 25 percent? Or one-fifth, I guess it was, of the 1990 campaign chest for Clinton came back to him in the form of "contributions" from the recipients of ADFA loans. So I think that's a style that you're gonna see developing more and more, surfacing more and more, throughout the investigations {8}, is how Bill was able to stay in power, and keep his campaign chest full, while people that tried to surface, to compete with him, were literally strapped for cash.
TOM DONAHUE:
Back to George Bush and his sons: What do you know there? What,
what's... Because this book does focus on Bush and Clinton,
let's talk about their knowledge, or their involvement or
complicity, in the drug trade.
TERRY REED:
Well first of all, I'll whet your audience's appetite and use
this as an opportunity to tell you there is another book in the
works. This book [Compromised] became gargantuan, as you
mentioned several times, and we had to finally, you know, lop it
off at some point to get the thing to press.
But to answer that question, one has to study Barry Seal, and know something about intelligence, as it works anyway. And it's not like on TV. And it's not like the James Bond movies. You go to intelligence school to learn how to compromise people, how to blackmail them, how to get dirt on them. It's a very ugly business when you get into the mechanics of how it actually functions.
Seal was a master at that. A photographic memory, literally. I never saw him write a clearance, an aircraft clearance radio frequency, down. A new frequency was stored in his memory as if it was a computer database. And as I worked with him and he basically became my intelligence mentor, to teach me the civilian side, how it functioned, and I was teaching him a few things about manufacturing and, so we were cross-sharing information. But I grew to really admire Seal's ability to stay one step ahead of people that were either trying to control him, neutralize him, or whatever. I think that style, though, is what lead to his death.
He did share with me, on a trip coming back from Panama, he was confiding in me. (This was about 3 months before he was killed.) He was confiding in me that he had the ultimate "neutralizing weapon" -- as he always called blackmail material -- "neutralizing material". He had gained information, originally from the DEA, and then information that he had actually confirmed firsthand, that the Bush kids were "dirty", as he put it. They'd been caught, actually, ensnared, in a trap. And of course the agents involved, once they realized who they had caught, let everybody go.
[...commercial break...]
Tom Donahue, "America's Town Forum". We're speaking with Terry Reed and author John Cummings, the authors of Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA. How the Presidency was co-opted by the CIA. And a picture of "Billy Boy" and "Skull & Bones" are on the front.
Back to the Bush brothers and "King George" himself; let's talk specifically -- their involvement.
But this is Seal talking to me. This is a quote:
"Terry, I've been working with several federal agencies," Seal began. "In the course of that business, a person can't help but run across some very sensitive information. It seems some major players in the Medellin cartel, whom I personally know, ran across some knowledge that's very valuable to both Republicans and the Democratic party. It seems some of the, George Bush's kids, just can't say 'no' to drugs. A guy in Florida, who 'flipped' for the DEA, has got the goods on the Bush boys. Now I heard this earlier from a very reliable source in Columbia. But I just sat on it then, waiting to use it as my 'trump card'. I got names, dates, places, even got some tape recordings. I even got surveillance videos catching the Bush boys red-handed. I consider this stuff my 'insurance policy'. It makes me, and my 'mole' on the inside that's feedin' the stuff to me, invincible."
And that's the end of the quote. Now...
We'll be back. Tom Donahue, with "America's Town Forum".
[End of hour 1]
--------------------------<< Notes >>---------------------------- {1} Regarding Nixon: It's hard to understand why Clinton ordered flags flown at half mast for 30 days in honor of Nixon. To my knowledge, this was unprecedented. I don't think even JFK got the flag flown at half mast for 30 days. Talk about collective insanity: 30 days for fu**ing Nixon!!
{2} "...Clinton as a coward and someone that shirked his duty..." There were many who sought to avoid and/or avoided military service during the Vietnam era. They keep repeating this "Clinton the coward" stuff, and it's ridiculous.
But why? Why are they drumming this into our heads, this "Clinton the coward that shirked his duty" baloney? Hypothesis: Are they conditioning us to swallow some future law that we not "shirk our duty"? Are they conditioning us to accept a re- instatement of the draft? Are they conditioning us to "not be 'cowards' like Clinton"? Are they conditioning us to be cannon fodder for another one of their wars?
Just conjecture. But then again, you tell me: Why all this "Clinton the coward who shirked his duty" repeated again and again?
{3} "But so many don't know his [Oliver North's] role in this..." But after all, every damn fart in the O.J. Simpson trial is just so much more important, so much more newsworthy, that of course "many don't know North's role in this". After all, really important news must take precedence.
{4} "When does a CIA asset cease to be a CIA asset? When he's arrested." From the old TV series, Mission: Impossible, "As always, if you are caught or captured, the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions."
{5} "Rosetta Stone" -- A key that unlocks a mystery. The original "Rosetta Stone" was discovered in Egypt by Napoleon's army. For ages, a way to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphs had been sought, without success. The Rosetta stone had chiselled into it a message written both in ancient Greek and in the Egyptian hieroglyphs. This was the key that unlocked the hieroglyphs.
{6} Webb Hubbell was, as I recall, deputy attorney general. He may have been, in effect, Clinton's eyes and ears at the Justice Department -- moreso than Janet Reno anyway, who is not part of Clinton's bunch of Arkansas buddies that he brought with him to Washington.
{7} Finus: pronounced FI-nus, with a long "I" sound as in "high". For example, His Highness, Finus.
{8} "...throughout the investigations..." Was that what that was? That thing that flashed by this summer, that whitewash? Was that the "investigations"?
What's Starr up to these days, or won't the media be covering that until after the November elections?
BTW -- Get set for Clinton to invade Haiti right around election time. What a coincidence, huh?
{9} "The book is available..." No need to use Tom Donahue to get the book. It is available or can be ordered through your local bookseller. However, Donahue does offer audio tapes of past programs. Information I have, current as of July 21, 1994, reads (in part) as follows:
Your tape order has been processed by volunteers...We are sorry about the delay in getting your order filled. [CN -- True, there was delay. Donahue's preoccupation with his trial may have been why.] ...Tapes of past and current shows (with fill-in host Bo Gritz) are still available at $7.00 for both hours [CN -- Full price, including postage]... Allow 2-3 weeks for delivery although we hope to do it faster. For a list of shows available send a self addressed stamped envelope to
America's Town Forum
P.O. Box 835
Atlantic Beach, Florida 32233
Most of each $7.00 tape goes for Tom's defense fund.
{10} The New Federalist is published weekly. Subscriptions are available at $20 for 50 issues, $35 for 100 issues. Make checks payable to "New Federalist" at New Federalist, PO Box 889, Leesburg, VA 22075. Note: It has good info, but I suggest reading it with "a grain of salt".
{11} In the past I have criticized LaRouche et al. This is not to say that they don't write some good articles. They do put out some excellent information, in my opinion. But be wary of turning your mind over to LaRouche, as some have done. For that matter, I would say to be wary, also, of turning your mind over to just about any "authority": Conspiracy Nation, television, Noam Chomsky, "experts", or you name it. The trick, it seems to me, is to think for yourself.
{12} "...they [New Federalist] took our book and quite interestingly enough..." Yes, I recall reading the New Federalist account of the Reed/Cummings book. By reading their account, you might miss the fact that this took place in Arkansas and that, according to the book, Bill Clinton has much to answer for. If one were to read only the New Federalist account of the book, one might go away with the impression that the book only features George Bush on the cover and not Bill Clinton as well. The New Federalist coverage, amazingly, neglects the Clinton/Arkansas angle. WHY?? Why is LaRouche running interference for Clinton?
"Justice" = "Just us" = "History is written by the assassins."