INTERVIEW WITH SHERMAN SKOLNICK -- MAY 17, 1995
On May 17, 1995, I interviewed, by telephone, Mr. Sherman Skolnick of the Citizens' Committee to Clean-up the Courts [CCCC]. The following is my summary of that interview. (Note that in the following, I neither necessarily agree nor disagree with either all or some of Mr. Skolnick's statements.)
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CONSPIRACY NATION:
What's going on these days with Whitewater?
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What's happening is, there's a statute of limitations deadline,
that's May 25th, '95, to do something about White House aide
Bruce Lindsey. He's mentioned in different stories as having been
fingered by uh -- Neal Ainsley, I think the name is? So, many
expected that he was the next to be indicted. And he occupies the
office, in the White House, between the oval office and Al Gore.
So he's not a "nobody".
So, if between now and the 25th, Kenneth Starr causes Mr. Lindsey to be indicted, then, the way the dominoes are falling, the next one would fall on the oval office: Clinton himself.
And so, it may be that there's a great deal of nervousness now in the White House.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
One thing I've always noticed is, sometimes, on your recorded
commentaries {1}, you'll say "Our chairman", okay? You'll say,
"This person was interviewed by 'our chairman.'" Who's "The
chairman"?
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well, that's me. The point is, I don't like to talk in the first
person, 'cuz I'm a spokesman for the group, and this isn't a
personal commentary. I don't know if it would sound right if I
said "me", "I", and stuff like that. I talk in the third person
so that, irrespective of who is delivering the commentary to
the recorded tape, it would sound more objective.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Okay.
I wanted to get into this idea of "The New World Order". For somebody like me, that I, essentially, I come from the "left", as my background (although, recently, I've been reading a lot of different sources; not just from the "left") -- but I can understand where, somebody from the "left" would automatically respond to this idea of "The New World Order" as...
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well, you know, when I used to give speeches in front of colleges
several years ago, I had this favorite saying that some of the
students understood. I says, "You know, they try very hard (the
press does, and the FBI and the rest of 'em) to see to it that
there's no genuine left wing in the United States. So that, if
the United States was an airplane, it'd be the only airplane of
its kind in the world, that flies with only one wing! -- and it
ain't 'left.'"
That used to help the students try to understand that.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah.
But my idea for, say, some readers of... that maybe think that this, "The New World Order" is kind of a crazy thing: you know, one way of looking at it is (this is from something that Noam Chomsky wrote in a small booklet called The Prosperous Few and the Restless Many {2} ):
Throughout history, the structures of government have tended to coalesce around other forms of power -- in modern times, primarily around economic power. So, when you have national economies, you get national states. We now have an international economy and we're moving towards an international state. {3}
Okay? And that's right from Noam Chomsky!
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah, but let me say something.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
I know that you're skeptical about Noam Chomsky.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well... Here's the problem. There's various commentators, some of
'em right-wing, some of 'em mainstream, who talk that "Big
Brother" is "leftist". And they even say that Ted Kennedy, the
Senator from Massachusetts, is "liberal" and "leftist", and that
"Big Brother" is... the right wing likes to call it "socialist".
What's wrong with it is, none of 'em ever bothered to check the definition. Socialism means the working people, the common people, the common folks, owning the instruments of production and communication. And it has nothing to do with these other interpretations that these right-wing radio announcers put on it, and so on.
I mean, one of the things that's little-known is, early in his career, J. Edgar Hoover, as the head of the FBI, saw to it that no "lefties" were allowed to own a radio broadcast license.
So when these other right-wingers and such that say that the news media is "left wing" and "liberal" -- I really don't know what they're talking about. If labor activists, trade union activists -- true "lefties" -- are, historically have not been allowed to own and operate radio and TV broadcast licenses in the United States, then what is this idea that the media, you know, headquartered in New York, is "left wing", "Big Brother", "socialist" agenda?
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah! I agree with you. I think there's a real confusion in
terms, as far as -- you know, they're calling people "from the
left" like, as you say, East Coast liberal, ivy-league types.
These are the same people that, they've never really worked. I
mean, I've had tons of professors that, I've talked with them,
and they've said that, basically, they just went to college and
became professors. And they've got no connection with the
average, working-class person.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah. And the media and others often describe "what the working
people are all about," what... They use the word out of Orwell:
"Big Brother". And basically, George Orwell (that's another thing
that they don't go into) -- Orwell, in writing his book, 1984,
with all these names that he created -- "Big Brother" and all
that -- he basically was trying to put down the left wing. And so
right-wingers, and narrow-minded types, and rednecks, and all
these other types that don't want to be sophisticated: whenever
there's something that helps ordinary people, they right away
say, "It's 'Big Brother'! We've gotta put an end to it."
It's like now, the current issue of Time magazine has got a hatchet on the cover, and "Cut The Budget". What do they want to do? I mean, they want to cut food stamps. And yet, they don't point out that the whole food stamp program wouldn't pay for one nuclear aircraft carrier.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah! That's somethin' else: that, whenever it comes to where
people say, "Let's reduce the size of government," they always
go after women with babies, or anybody that's...
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Or they talk about "the welfare system" -- where it's mostly
rural whites. They never like to put on the television the rural
whites in the state of Maine that are absolutely impoverished.
Or the rural whites in southern Illinois. But they point to the
black population in the major cities as if all of them are on
welfare!
And the other thing: you know, I like to, I like to get into these things. Because I'll tell ya why: the blacks are some of the hardest-working people in the world. And I live in an all- black neighborhood, myself. (And, you know, I'm livin' here, since the neighborhood is here and I didn't move away. Some of my other neighbors and such, they moved away to the prosperous northwest suburbs.) But the point is, 5 o'clock in the morning, all the lights go on; everybody is gettin' up, to go to work. This idea that blacks are all on welfare and are lazy and are not working is a terrible, terrible, erroneous stereotype. They do among the hardest work in the post office, and in the back departments of the hotels, together with the Hispanics. I like to tell this joke that, if they don't stop beating blacks on the head, their mail isn't gonna arrive! You know what I'm saying?
And who punches out most of the checks, the percentage of blacks that are working in the Social Security Administration. I mean, they're operatin' the machinery, they're doin' the hard work. I don't understand these people, that want to beat these people on the head!
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Well, you know what it is: it's because they're the least
powerful.
A lot of people from the "left", they hear this thing about "The New World Order" and it sounds really weird to them.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well it's not "new", it's... President Franklin D. Roosevelt put
the Latin terms for "The New World Order"...
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah: "Novus ordo seclorum".
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
...on the back of the dollar bill.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
He put that on there, huh?
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Uh, apparently that started with the, about 1933, when they
changed the money. I could be wrong, but that's what some
scholars, who claim they know about it, said.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
"Novus ordo seclorum". "New World Order" is a translation. I
would translate it, literally, as "New Order of the Ages".
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well, what's wrong with it is, it's really not "The New World
Order". The very wealthy, the ultra rich, what they do is, they
put up retainers... What it is is, "Change -- That There Be No
Change At All". They don't want the status quo to be changed,
so they give the impression that there is change. It's really
"The Old World Order". It's not "The New World Order" at all.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Well, all right. But see, my perspective... This is what
convinced me that there is, indeed, a plan for a "New World
Order", is based on -- whether or not you agree with Chomsky;
sometimes I agree with him, and I agree with him that, when he
says that governments tend to coalesce around the economic power.
And then you've got the economic power, that's going global.
What's gonna follow from that is a globalization of the
government.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well, if that's what they had in mind when they started
Internet... But once they let the genie out of the bottle, they
found out that there's some clever people out there are gonna use
this to get around the mainstream liars.
Because people like Ben Bagdikian, an expert on media monopoly, in his books and so on {4}, says that by the middle of the last decade of the 20th century there will be only six multinational companies that will own the entire communications establishment: the radio, the TV, the print media, the books, communications -- all of it. On that basis, it gets to be a monopoly.
So part of the globalization was to set up Internet, figuring that that same thing is gonna help! But instead of that, a lot of clever people are getting a lot of truth, that's been bottled up by the three TV networks and the rest of 'em, on Internet, to the point where Clinton and others feel threatened by it. And they'd like to shut down Internet, if they could find one wire, with a big snippers to snip that one wire. That's assuming that it's a wire! It might be wireless! [laughs]
In other words, the genie has gotten out of the bottle, and they would like to restore their monopoly to the situation.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Okay.
But anyway, see, a lot of my readers are coming from the "right", so-called. But there's others that are coming from the "left". And a lot of 'em hear about this idea of "The New World Order" and, you know, it sounds just too nuts to them.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well I'm against putting labels on people. Because, in other
words, if they say you're "left", they says, "Oh! I can't talk to
you." And then "left wing" says, "Oh! You're a 'right-wing'. I
can't talk to you."
The ones that encourage that are the mainstream, monopoly-minded types, that want to control everything. And it's a mistake to put labels on people. It's a very great mistake.
And the best thing for people is to look at their idea. And look at their, the way they analyze the facts and history of the world, and go on that basis -- instead of putting a label.
They like to call me a "conspiracy theorist" and I grievously hate that. Because... Well, I explain it this way: I says, "First of all, the way things are: so nuts that, if you're not nuts, if you're not paranoid, you're crazy." That's number one. And number two is, you've gotta understand what's going on in the world and... and the ultra rich are running everything. So, I mean, they're only one percent of the people -- we outnumber them -- why are we so worried about them? In any case, we outnumber them.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah, the general distinction of so-called "left" versus so-
called "right" was pointed to by an article by Chip Berlet, where
he warned of "Right Woos Left". He was all over, "sounding the
alarm"...
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well Z Magazine, his enterprise there, I have reason to believe
is just another CIA front.
You see, that's another thing that's wrong in the country: there's too many foundations that control the "left" press. The right-wing press is financed by right-wing books and such. The left-wing press -- The Nation, In These Times (headquartered in Chicago) -- are all tied in with foundations -- alleged liberal foundations -- fronting for the CIA! And when you're on that kind of a ball and chain with the espionage people, how the hell can you tell the truth!?
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah. But going back to Berlet, I don't know how to put this: I
don't know that he's somebody that's disinformation, or working
for the establishment or whatever...
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well he put out a story, all over, that I'm one of the leading
Nazis in the United States. And it is a plain lie! And it's a
lie that bothers me no end, because I started the campaign to
expose the Nazi war criminals in the United States. My friends
hired a big ballroom of one of the older hotels in 1976. And I
conducted the first major seminar in the United States
identifying the Nazi war criminals that live amongst us. And a
lot of 'em were still alive in 1976. Now, by 1995, some have
died off and so on. But in 1976, former gestapo types and so on
were all over the place in the United States.
So for Chip Berlet to say that Sherman Skolnick is a leading Nazi, is far from the truth! Directly opposite to the truth.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah, he has really been spreading things that I -- I don't know
how to put it -- that disgust me.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well, he claims that Oswald did it alone [laughs]. Okay.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Okay, but where he's saying in this essay of his, where he's
warning people of, you know, the thing was "Right Woos Left",
that the "right" is trying to form a coalition, in other words.
To me, we're used to saying this thing about the "left" versus
the "right". I think that's how they prevent a coalition from
being formed.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah. In other words, what he's trying to do is prevent people
from coming together over common issues.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah! "Divide and conquer."
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Look. The rest of us, that are not the ultra rich (that's only
one percent of the people), uh... we have a lot of things in
common with the rest of the bulk of the people. And what's the
point of putting labels on 'em?
The major issue, which we ask every candidate during the election period that comes on our cable TV show -- what is the one question we ask 'em? (And none of the candidates, for Governor or whatever other, ever answer.) And that is, I make the statement: "The ultra rich, generally, pay no taxes (through corruption and other means). And, that is the major problem in America. What are you gonna do, 'candidate' (whether a man or a woman), what are you gonna do to tax the ultra rich?"
And this one question ties them in such a knot. Because the basic question in the United States, generally is not dealt with -- certainly not by the magazines and the radio talk shows -- and that is, the absolute failure to tax the ultra rich. They're like kings and queens, or sacred cows. They are not taxed. And that has been true since the federal income tax was put in.
And so, when they point to "The country's going bankrupt," "We've got no money for fixing railroads, the roads, street signs, street lights, running hospitals, libraries, schools" -- there is really only one answer. And that is, the failure to tax the ultra rich. If that one percent of the people, that owns and operates most of America, paid a proper percentage on their assets and wealth, there wouldn't be any problem in America.
I mean, the Rockefellers, the Mellons, and the Morgans and the others, generally pay no tax at all. And this came out when Nelson Rockefeller was put up as Vice-President under the 25th amendment in 1975. (Not by election but by appointment.) And he testified that he and his family had not paid, the Rockefeller family, had not paid any taxes. The richest man in America had not paid any taxes in the previous eleven years.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah, that's like Leona Helmsley, where she said this thing,
"Only the little people pay taxes."
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well... She's not that very wealthy. I'm talkin' about the
ultra rich. Not millionaires but ultra rich: the billionaire
billionaires.
And here's Nelson Rockefeller, testifying that he and his family did not pay anything for the previous 11 years! Hey. If the guys that have the most don't pay anything, is it any wonder that we've got 100-year-old bridges that collapse, railroad tracks that are in bad shape, hospitals that are bankrupt {5}, libraries and schools, school districts, that are bankrupt? The guys with the real money are not paying anything! And, since they own the instruments of communication, their puppets are not gonna ask some candidate, "Uh, what are you gonna do, Mr. or Madam Candidate, about the failure to tax the ultra rich?" Nobody asks the question! I'm one of the few that asks the question. And that's because we do a free TV show, where nobody taps us on the shoulder and says, "Hey! Skolnick: shut up!"
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Okay. But I kind of wanted to cover one more thing on this thing
about why we should fear, or be concerned, about "The New World
Order", is that, if a global government coalesces around the
global economic power, then that is gonna supersede the Bill of
Rights in this country.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well they're doin' that now. Because the Bill of Rights is in
"suspension mode". Newsletter writers and others are getting
knocks on the door by the FBI: "I saw in your newsletter there
that you mentioned the militia. What about it?"; "I saw in your
commentary... What about it?"
And so those that refuse to talk to the FBI, they show you, right at your door, a big stack of all the information they compiled on you: your bank loan, your car, your this, your telephone -- they got all your telephone records.
See, there's a national security directive in effect right now, as a result of the bombing in Oklahoma. And, in other words, the FBI doesn't need any further powers, because the President himself claims there's a plot to overthrow the government, it's a national security matter. And they're goin' around, and they're tryin' to stifle the few independent voices of communication that we have left in the country: newsletter writers, commentators, smaller radio station moderators -- they're all gettin' a knock on the door! And not every one of 'em is sayin', "Hey, FBI: you don't have an arrest warrant or search warrant for this address. So go away!" Some of 'em are becoming frightened. Why? They have children; they're worried about their mortgage. The FBI informs them that they've already been to the mortgage company; they're talkin' to all their neighbors. In other words, they're puttin' on the general, there's a general "wave of terror" against the few independent voices in the country.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Okay, and that's been prompted by this thing with the Oklahoma
bombing where...
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah well that's a good reason to suspect that the government did
it, for the purpose of suspending the Bill of Rights. Whatever
you think about the militias, whether you're for or against their
position, they seem to have the facts right: there's an effort
underway to suspend the Bill of Rights for this "New World Order"
business.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah. And that would bring me back to this thing of, approaching
this thing from the "left" via Chomsky's idea of governments
coalescing around the economic power, and the global government
superseding the Bill of Rights, so that it is something to be
feared; that this is not some thing where people on the "left"
can say, "Oh well, these 'right wing' people."
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
There are two questions that Time magazine and the other
blowhard pundits have not dealt with is, they have not
adequately explained: What are the large numbers of foreign
troops doing on our soil? Are we facing a big problem, like Spain
in 1933, where they brought Italy and Germany's armies onto
Spanish soil to deal with a civil war?
And the other thing is, Time magazine, discussing what the militias are complaining about, would have you believe that all these secret societies (like the Bilderbergs and so on), which the top publication pundits go to, and then never tell us anything -- what happened there -- that they're just little "luncheon groups" that are of no consequence.
I mean, the major makers and shakers of the world go to these secret conferences -- the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Bilderberg Group. No report comes back. Only a few, right-wing journals talk about it. And then Time magazine, because the militias are making an issue of it, is pooh-poohing it and says, "No, no... It's just a luncheon group."
When you see a list of the Bilderberg Group, it's... the publisher of Time magazine, the editor-in-chief that's there. How come their magazine doesn't tell us what happened at the secret conference, where they themselves are part of it!?
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Do you know of any good books on the Bilderbergers?
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Uh, the only ones that publish it are the ultra-right wing!
[laughs] So-called "ultra-right wing". The left wing, that gets a
lot of CIA foundation money (like The Nation, and In These
Times, and so on), they're not gonna go into it at all. So, I
mean in a way it's a mistake to call 'em a "left wing".
They're... I'm not sure what part of the airplane they are,
whether they're the tail or the jet. [laughs]
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah, I know what you mean! Because, it's almost like the left
has pretty much disappeared. I mean, the real left. 'Cuz I
remember that, say, in the '60s, that...
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well if you looked at my files, what would you find? Communist
Party USA, clippings on them is in a right-wing file! [laughs]
CONSPIRACY NATION:
[laughs]
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
You'd have to understand the logic we apply, because they were
a spokesman for the Moscow government. And so, what genuine
left wing is there, in this country? The labor unions are, many
of 'em are too close to the corporations they're supposed to
unionize. It's a mistake to call that there's a union movement in
the United States. The number of people working, that belong to
unions, has fallen below 16 percent. So the bulk of the United
States is working now without union contracts, without union
benefits. Which means, instead of getting $15 an hour, you'd be
lucky if you get $5 an hour. And with that, you have the
contradiction that, you're making $5 an hour, and they want to
sell you a $12,000 car! I mean, there's a contradiction.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
And the thing is, a lot of these so-called, say, call 'em
"establishment leftists"... I don't see that the "left" has
really got a connection to the working class. There's exceptions.
Like there's a group in Detroit that was puttin' out a weekly
newspaper called "The International Workers Bulletin", where they
were involved in their community, okay?
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah. Those are genuine people.
The point is, what "left wing" are they talkin' about? In These Times reportedly gets their money through a so-called "liberal foundation": The Institute for Policy Studies [IPS], which made them make a U-turn on the October Surprise story by threatening to cut their money off. And we, from what we know about the IPS, believe they're connected with the CIA! So I mean, what independent, left-wing publication...
All of the "left-wing" publications, put together, if you added them all up from their circulation statements that they're obliged to file every fall under the postal regulations -- all of 'em, put together, do not amount to 150,000 circulation. The average of these small publications is about 5,000. So one Chicago Tribune or one New York Times drowns them out! In fact, Ferdinand Lundberg(sp?), in his book, The Rich and the Super Rich, sort of laughed a little bit. He says, "These guys, with their mimeograph machines," (that was the thing when that book came out), "they are like throwing spitballs at the Rockefeller battleship."
CONSPIRACY NATION:
On the other hand, I wouldn't -- if they're truly an
independent press -- I wouldn't totally denigrate 'em, because my
feeling is it's better to try and do something.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah, it's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.
But the point is, as I said earlier, the thing that is bothering the Establishment, the ultra rich, the most is this monster that they let out of the bottle: Internet. Their idea was to globalize communications with Internet. But this genie, this monster, is out of the bottle -- and now they don't know how to put it back! [laughs]
Because there are some clever people out there says, "Hey! Forget about the news fakers in New York. Notice what this one says, and notice what that one says." I mean like, in my position: until the last 5 years, when they saw me on television, people would run into me downtown and says, "Skolnick, I thought you were either dead or retired. I haven't seen you."
With many of those people downtown, you're in a 17th century technology. If they don't see you once in a while, in the evening, on the television, you're dead or retired or have fled the country. And that's where cable access comes in; that's where Internet comes in: they gotta see your name. And another thing: they gotta see you on the computer screen. If they can't press up nothin' on that machine and make your story come up on the computer screen -- you're dead, you're retired, you left the country. [laughs] They've gotta see you there! That's the latest technology.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah.
One other thing: you mentioned... Okay, you live at 9800 S. Oglesby. And from what you say, that's a black neighborhood now.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I'm not saying that from a negative standpoint. I'm here since
the neighborhood was here. The neighborhood got started in 1948
and '50, and my folks bought the house and here I am! I don't
wish to run to the lily-white suburbs: number one, I don't have
the money, and number two, it's too far from the center of
downtown and the cultural center. The cultural center in Chicago
is not in the northwest suburbs -- that's a desert. The cultural
center is the University of Chicago, which is only a few minutes
from me. And so, if there's something important at the U of C,
and I tell somebody that lives in Mount Prospect [i.e., a
northwest suburb] -- My God! I mean, they gotta travel
considerable time and distance to get to it. Whereas by me, it's
only a few minutes away!
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah. See, my mom grew up on the south side of Chicago, around
79th and Throop st., by St. Sabina's parish down there...
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
...and I know, somewhat, of the way things usually go: is that,
there would be, the blacks would move into the neighborhood,
tensions would arise, and the whites would leave. And it's just
unusual for somebody to just stay in the neighborhood like that.
What's it like for you? You're probably -- what? -- the only white guy livin' in the neighborhood?
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Uh, no. There's about two or three others in there. I get along
with everybody! What difference would it make? I mean there's,
some of my own religion would like to take a rope and hang me.
It's...
You know, I point out things that are hard. We're working on a story that, for 3 years now we can't quite get it together the way we like it. And that is, that the federal judges, who are supposed to promote human rights, generally do not allow black and Hispanic lawyers to make a living in the federal courthouse in Chicago. So it's the same as putting up a sign in Alabama 50 years ago, that blacks should drink from this other fountain. So I finally got one black, prominent lawyer to talk to me off-the- record. And so far, he's agreed to go on our show. And he says, "Yeah, you're right, Skolnick! These judges over there discriminate against black lawyers. They... It's as if they put a sign up and says 'Black lawyers not wanted.'" And you know the one they really don't want are blacks that are not Christians, that are Muslims. It's like they got a sign up there, but it's an invisible sign, that's saying "Blacks and Black Muslim lawyers: Do not practice here, because you will not be allowed to make a living. Go practice in the traffic court and the bus accident claims in the state court. Don't come into the federal court."
And I, I've got at least one prominent, black lawyer who says he will go on our show and say that, for all the world to hear.
And that's, that runs contrary to the accepted wisdom that the federal court is the great supporter of human rights. Not in Chicago they're not.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah.
Did you succeed in getting Debra von Trapp to be on your show at all?
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
She's an interesting character. What has happened as a result of
your serializing the lengthy interview I did with her on tape, is
that all of those that were in with her circle are trying to
either threaten me, or sweet talk me [laughs]. I mean, I don't
know who all these people are that suddenly are calling me up and
they want to talk an hour or two and persuade me that yes, the
Clinton White House was spied on, but no, they didn't do it, it
was this other guy that did it! [laughs]
CONSPIRACY NATION:
[laughs]
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I mean, I talked already with Robert Goetzman and some of the
others. I had to find him. But some of the others have found
me, and they call me, and they're tryin' to sweet talk me: "Oh
yes, there was spying in the District of Columbia. Oh yes. But
I only know about it; I didn't go along with it." That's what
they tell me! [laughs]
CONSPIRACY NATION:
[laughs]
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I listen. I consider myself a fair-minded journalist.
But the one benefit the Debra von Trapp story has done is to draw all these strange, "spooky" types out of the woodwork! [laughs]
CONSPIRACY NATION:
[laughs]
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I think some of 'em are runnin' after you too, a little bit.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah! I... You know, like I say, I got that e-mail from uh, Wes
Thomas I think his name is. And, you know, I always have a
disclaimer that I put in front of my postings, that I neither
necessarily agree nor disagree. You know, I just...
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
He claims he's not with the CIA, as Debra says. But I tell ya
somethin': there's a lot to support the contrary. He's a top
notcher. He is far too clever. And, in fact, it'd probably be
an insult to say he's with the CIA. I mean, he probably
supervises the CIA!
Wes Thomas is awfully clever. But he's very personable. He called me up the other night and spoke to me for an hour like it was some uncle that I had forgotten about! [laughs]
CONSPIRACY NATION:
[laughs]
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
He was very friendly, this guy. I mean, where did I run into him?
At a luncheon or something? That he calls me up and he's so sweet
and nice and so on.
He says that Goetzman did solicit him to spy on all the foreign embassies in Washington, but that he didn't go along with it. But the plan was, according to Wes Thomas, the plan was that Goetzman was gonna supply used computers, with transponders secretly built into them, and that Wes Thomas was gonna give these away to all the foreign embassies. And that way, the team (the secret team) could then spy on 'em.
But Wes would have me believe that he didn't go along with it. Well, I don't know. All I know is, your serializing the story on Internet, the interview of Debra, has brought all of these -- I don't know what to call 'em! -- secret team disclaiming they're a secret team -- has brought 'em all out into the open, to call and sweet talk me. And a few, of course, have also threatened me! [laughs] I mean, you know...
CONSPIRACY NATION:
How did they threaten you?
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well Goetzman says he's gonna get me by, by sending a subpoena
after me! [laughs] You know...
CONSPIRACY NATION:
So how could he send a subpoena after you? All you did was
interview somebody.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
He hung up before I could ask that! Subpoena me for what!? You
know what I mean? [laughs]
I asked him straight out: Do you know anything about the spying in the White House?
And he kept asking me my phone number. And he went around and around and around with that. And although I told him my name, several times, he pretended (he's pretty clever) like he couldn't get my name! [laughs] I mean, ya know what I mean? [laughs]
Then he says he really wants his lawyer. I says, "No, I just want to know: What do you have to say in response to Debra von Trapp's statement?"
And by the way, a 16-year-old computer hacker is the one that fished out Goetzman's unlisted number for me! [laughs]
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Well this person, his name, it wouldn't have been "Xxxxxxx"? Naw,
I guess...
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah, yeah! That's him!
He's called me about 10 times. He's a nice fellow.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
This stuff that you've been sayin' about Wes Thomas and
Goetzman...
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I've been talking to these people, and I -- despite all the
things that have happened -- I think that Debra von Trapp's story
is substantially correct.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah, I think so too. I can't really prove it, but just my sense
is that it...
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
The Chicago Tribune, in a recent Sunday edition, printed a
denial of the Japanese bombing.
CONSPIRACY NATION:
Yeah, my dad cut that out. It was, like, on the front page.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
When the Tribune is forced, without investigating it, to make a
blanket denial on the front page, you know that there's somethin'
there.
---------------------------<< Notes >>--------------------------- {1} Recorded commentaries from the Citizens Committee to Clean-up the Courts, Sherman H. Skolnick, chairman, can be heard by dialing (312) 731-1100 and (312) 731-1505.
{2} The Prosperous Few and the Restless Many by Noam Chomsky. Berkeley: Odonian Press, 1993. ISBN 1-878825-03-8
{3} Ibid., page 7, my copy.
{4} The Media Monopoly by Ben Bagdikian. Boston: Beacon Press, 1990. ISBN 0-8070-6159-X
{5} "...hospitals that are bankrupt..." As noted, I don't necessarily agree with everything Mr. Skolnick says. Nowadays, many hospitals are for-profit entities, generating cash for investors. Add to that the fact that hospitals and doctors routinely pad their bills, pass these charges along to medicare, and then medicare passes these charges along to the taxpayers. So, my question would be (which I may remember to ask Mr. Skolnick) -- if the money is getting stolen and wasted, what good will increased taxes from any source be, whether "ultra rich" or otherwise?
Coming to you from Illinois -- "The Land of Skolnick"