SUMMARY OF INFO FROM CITIZENS' COMMITTEE -- APRIL 23, 1995
On April 23, 1995, I interviewed, by telephone, Mr. Sherman Skolnick of the Citizens' Committee to Clean-up the Courts [CCCC]. The following is my summary of that interview.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
For starters, let me say that the following is my report of what Mr. Skolnick says; I neither necessarily agree nor disagree with either all or portions of the following. Mr. Skolnick's direct statements are marked off by quotation marks. All else is either my own paraphrasing of Mr. Skolnick's statements or my own personal comments, et cetera.
[Mr. Skolnick's statements are in quotes.]
"Sixteen indictments were handed up from the federal grand jury in Little Rock on Monday, the 17th. April 17th. The indictments were sealed."
"Of those, we feel assured of the names of three of them, of the defendants."
"Ordinarily, in more routine matters, indictments are sealed for 24 to 48 hours, so as to give the FBI and others a chance to find the defendants, serve the papers on 'em and arrest them, so that the defendants would then have to come... have to be brought to make bail bond and have a date set for an arraignment. That's the process."
"In other, more controversial cases, they're sealed by order of the chief judge of the district court of that district -- political cases, controversial cases -- which are then only released under the direction of the chief judge of the Justice Department. That is the arrangement."
"There have been instances where indictments have been kept sealed for as many as 70 years. Of course, that's a little ridiculous. But they tried to do the same thing regarding the indictment of Richard Nixon. He was indicted, and in that case it was more than that: the grand jury was ordered to take it back (which is illegal, to order the grand jury to do that)."
"But anyway, these 16 indictments were handed up from the grand jury on or about April 17th of this year."
"Those indicted were: Jim 'Guy' Tucker, the Arkansas Governor (the Lieutenant Governor has already told us that he is, more or less, already the Governor...); the second one is Thomas 'Mack' McLarty, former White House Chief of Staff, currently White House counsel, and former CEO of ARKLA, the natural gas public utility -- Oklahoma-Arkansas-and Louisiana; and the third indictment (of the 16 [indicted]) is Hillary Rodham Clinton, on two counts: bank fraud and obstruction of justice."
"The obstruction of justice count is based on, she ordered White House aide Foster's office to be cleared out and the contents to be delivered to her private quarters in the White House. (Webster Hubbell was involved in that.) She ordered them thereafter to destroy those records, which were being sought at the time by a federal magistrate in Little Rock, in the David Hale case. And she apparently believed that Hubbell had destroyed it [i.e., the records]. When Hubbell resigned from the third person in the Justice Department, he later was facing indictment and made a plea bargain with Kenneth Starr, the independent prosecutor. And to avoid jail, he turned those records over to the grand jury."
"And so, she was indicted on the second count, of obstruction of justice."
"She's now facing a third count, to be added to the indictment, based on Kenneth Starr, over this weekend, taking the sworn statement of both the President and the First Lady. And she apparently will be caught or has been caught with perjury. And so there will most likely be a third count to the indictment."
"Those are the three defendants, of the sixteen. Others, of the defendants, are reportedly also present or recent White House personnel that are involved in Clinton's problems. Sixteen in all."
NBC Nightly News, on Saturday, April 22nd, had a brief mention that Starr had visited the White House and taken sworn testimony from Bill and Hillary.
According to Skolnick, one of the counts against Hillary is related to alleged bank fraud involving Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan.
"The bank fraud count of the indictment against her, Hillary, involves mis-application of somewhere between $47 and $60 million, or causing the loss thereof to the government, in respect to a federally-insured financial institution."
"And I think you know what's involved there: involved there is what we've already been working on for some time -- to try to patch that [Hillary's alleged bank fraud] up, the clandestine transfer, from Chicago, of $50 million from an RTC contingency fund, which the major claim on the fund was Joseph Andreuccetti. And that was taken out from under him, so to speak, and transferred to Little Rock to try to cover up the very thing for which Hillary, reportedly, has now been indicted! Bank fraud."
[My interview with Joseph Andreuccetti will appear in issue #1 of the Conspiracy Nation Newsletter. Address inquiries on how to get a copy of the Conspiracy Nation Newsletter to bigxc@prairienet.org]
How long are they going to keep these indictments sealed?
"In the ordinary course of things, the chief judge in that district might have unsealed them a few days thereafter [i.e., a few days after Monday, April 17th]. But two days thereafter, of course, as we all know, there was the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City."
"One of the 3 that have been arrested or suspected or accused [in connection with the bomb blast], is reportedly an undercover operative of the Drug Enforcement Agency. If the government is confronted with this fact -- as they may [be] -- they may say that this is one of their people that 'ran out of control' and that they are not responsible for him having bombed the federal building."
You can almost see a cause and effect: the indictments of Hillary Clinton, "Mack" McLarty, Governor Jim "Guy" Tucker, and other Clinton cronies, are about to go public, and then -- BOOM -- the bomb goes off in Oklahoma.
"And there's a third event that should be considered: as a result of my stories being on the various computer networks (Prodigy, Internet)... I have made contacts with financial experts worldwide who exchange information with me in confidence; (I don't mention who they are.) And they contend that there is a 'panic point' approaching: 75 yen to the dollar {1}. And when it reaches that point, that there will be an embargo on foreign exchange; there will be no yen/dollar ratio considered anymore -- you won't be able to exchange up and back; those that have sent their... Americans that have sent their money out of the country will not be able to get it back. In other words, this whole foreign exchange thing will be frozen."
"And why did financial experts find it interesting to talk to me off the record? Because they felt that I am part of a group that is on the cutting edge of the so-called 'Whitewater affair' and that I have a good working knowledge of the, what's happening as far as the Kenneth Starr thing and so on, and that there may be validity to what I say: that Hillary is facing indictment (which I have been saying for quite a number of weeks now.)"
But can't they just bury this news?
"Well, there was a time when the news networks more carefully controlled the news -- prior to the current technology, that would be true. But there is, more and more stories are getting around the news networks, through the computer networks. The government would love, right now, to STOP the various computer networks, because they're a detriment to managing the news. In other words, people can pull up things on their screen which may be more truthful than what they're seeing on the evening news, on the television."
What about the arrest of bombing suspect Timothy McVeigh?
"Notice how fake it is: he had a fake driver's license, purportedly dated April 19th, 1995 -- the same day of the bombing. He was travelling at a rapid speed down the highway in, I believe, a yellow vehicle with no license plates, and him having a gun! He associates with those (or is related to, or is a cousin of, or something of that sort), with some of the ones of the Michigan Militia. And that one of those apparently, or reportedly, is the undercover operative of the DEA! We suspect that that, from all that we know, that that's Terry Nichols or somebody in that group."
"Please understand: I am not here to support the militia. However: like the anti-war movement of 25 years ago, it is spreading across the country because we're at a moment of great anguish in this country about things that are going wrong. And it's a 'prairie fire'. And so the government, at such a time, supplies [provocateurs] in order to put 'em on a dead end. I mean, that's the government policy: put up 'leaders' as provocateurs, get the dupes to follow, and then get the dupes into jail, or get them discredited total."
"And when someone that's knowledgeable, like me, shows up (as I did 25 years ago) to lecture on this: who gets heckled off the lecture stage? Me. Why? The dupes are not ready to believe that their 'leaders' (who are charming) are government operatives. And that will probably be so now."
"There are some very ordinary people who belong to the militia. I don't support what they do. But it's a made-to-order thing for a racial riot tinderbox. Everybody has seen the pictures. Some of the children that were injured or died were black. Some of the ordinary office workers that were injured or died in that bombing were black. And insofar as a white supremacist movement, or leaders of it that are anti-black and so on are involved in bombing the building, it's a made-to-order psychological bombshell itself."
It almost seems that the government's plan is like... it's been compared to the Reichstag fire.
"Right. I was just gonna say that. You got ahead of me. I was just gonna compare it to the Reichstag fire." {2}.
"Hitler's opposition in Germany was the German Communist Party. They had the largest printing presses, other than the main newspapers, in Germany. They could've really downed Hitler in '33. They didn't. And Hitler put an end to them with the Reichstag fire blamed on them, and then he rounded 'em up and he put 'em in concentration camps."
"'Cuz in the beginning, those that were put in the concentration camps were not necessarily Jews -- they started out to be Gypsies and communists, and then they were Jews, then they rounded up Jews. But in the beginning, they rounded up communists. And that was on the basis of a sweep; that is, Hitler says, 'The communists are a treasonous element in Germany. They bombed the German Parliament, the Reichstag. Round 'em up. Take 'em away.'"
"And if you think that they couldn't create a hysteria in this country to round up all these dupes that are following some of these provocateurs in the militia movement -- just wait and see what the media can crank up a hysteria in this country."
"And a side issue would be the Japanese cults with their poison gas attacks, threatening theme parks in Disneyland and such like that."
But Mr. Skolnick, hasn't the government largely failed in their efforts to whip up hysteria as a result of this bombing? True, there was a certain amount of unthinking reaction, where, for example, they had that crowd in Oklahoma booing and yelling for McVeigh's blood. But on the other hand, my sense is that people are, maybe, a little more educated these days -- at least some people are.
"I don't accept that. Many people sit there, passively, in front of the TV. And the thing goes into that portion of the brain which is not the intellectual portion. And that, of course, has been documented by others, other than me. It is not like reading a newspaper: the images from the television go into the subconscious portion of the brain and create different types of reactions than reading a book."
"I'll tell you what the government is doing: there is a category in one of the on-line services called... I think it's 'a.atf' or something like that [alt.atf?], where they keep track of all those that access. And it's an exchange of information on explosives among ordinary people."
"And that is the latest version of an FBI project. Ten, twelve, fourteen years ago, the FBI had a project -- which was exposed -- of keeping track of all of those across the country that withdrew books on certain subjects. It got to be a topic at a meeting of librarians, who opposed it under the first amendment. But the FBI was keeping track of all of those who withdrew books on explosives, and dynamite and things like that. And I interviewed a chief librarian myself on this subject some years ago. I'll have to re-play the interview, remind myself of everything."
"But the point is, the FBI has gone to the latest technology. And now, on one of the on-line services, they are the originating force behind this thing of keeping track of everybody that gets access to that. The letters 'atf' are part of the code of getting access to that on-line service. I don't have the full, uh, 'entry code'. But I think you can find..."
My sixth sense on this is, I think their plan to have this bombing be a prelude to a huge crack-down on militias -- to me, they have failed in that, for the moment.
"I hate to predict violence: I don't like it; I don't encourage it. But it seems to me, to carry out their Reichstag fire type of scenario, that the powers that be in this country are prepared to assassinate; to bomb other public and private buildings; to get the public into such a state of anguish and 'psyche them out', that they will agree to suspension of the rights that many of us -- not me -- but many people take for granted, that they have these rights, spelled out in the Bill of Rights and so on. They may find out that they don't have that anymore."
As you predicted, they delivered up a "patsy" on the evening news.
"Yeah. 'Lee Harvey Oswald' McVeigh."
"I talked to broadcasters that I know all over the United States. A few of them are very knowledgeable about the militia in their area. They have supplied me the names and anecdotal information that would indicate to any reasonable person that understood provocateurs that 'such and such leaders' in 'that' particular area of the country, of the militia, are in fact undercover FBI and so on. I have a list of these names, and they are the ones that have, in the past, gotten the most news coverage of starting up with the local law enforcement, or federal law enforcement, or whatever. And I've asked these broadcasters (off the record, of course) whether they would go on the air, in their talk show segment, and say any of this. And they says, 'You gotta be crazy, Skolnick! They'd come here, bomb our radio towers, or take a big hook or something and pull 'em down, and claim that they're promoting the truth thereby!'"
"None of the broadcasters that I've talked to are willing to go on the air and mention rather specific information that would convince others that heard it that the ones they're talking about are, most likely, government-sponsored provocateurs acting as leaders of the militia in that particular state or locale. No one is prepared to go on the air or in print (so far; that I've talked to). I've talked, off-the-record, with various alternative publications, broadcasters, and so on, and they're aware of the problem of agents provocateurs acting as leaders. Not just the dupes! I mean, the dupes are innocent! It's the leaders -- some leaders, not all! -- of the militia, that are cranking up this situation. And then the government is gonna come in with a propaganda blitz, promoted by the mass media, and round up their own provocateur leaders of the militia! [laughs]"
"I mean it's... I don't know why I'm laughing. But it's a dangerous situation to the Bill of Rights. Very dangerous. Because the ordinary people will say, 'Yeah. These are the people that are white supremacists. They went and bombed the nursery and the building there, and killed, among others, blacks. Yes! Round 'em up! Round 'em all up! Them and all their followers!'"
"Hey. You'd have a massive situation, which would be a national emergency. And at such a time, they'd wave the flag and 'Support Clinton', and 'Don't criticize your President', and things like that. And it's a strong psychological move, to stop the grand jury indictment of the First Lady from being un-sealed."
Have you heard anything more, as to technical aspects of the bomb blast?
"Well the problem is, they started out with 1200 pounds of 'homemade bomb'... 1500... Now they say 4000 pounds, which is just short of 2 tons. Can you imagine a 20-foot panel truck, trundling up with 4000 pounds of chemically volatile 'homemade bomb'? Which is hard to predict when it'd be ready to detonate it? Bouncing around on streets? My opinion is that a homemade bomb is hard to set for a [specific] time: it may go off at 9:15; it may, more likely, go off at 12:15 or 4:15 or the next day! It's not like a military powder or plastique or some other bomb. And explosives experts have looked at the pictures and have said that it looks like there might have been additional explosives used on the reinforced concrete pillars! Especially in the basement."
Anything further you wish to say?
"I am just now working on the Hillary indictment story. And the sources we have for it are very good, and I feel that that is the situation. And when you tie that in with the Wednesday bombing, and all the other things, it seems to be a pattern of events."
---------------------------<< Notes >>--------------------------- {1} Regarding the dollar/yen relationship, maybe this explains the continued rise in the stock market: as the dollar keeps losing value, people take their money out of dollars and put it in the stock market.
{2} Reichstag fire. [From the Encyclopaedia Britannica] The burning of the Reichstag (parliament) building in Berlin, on the night of Feb. 27, 1933, [was] a key event in the establishment of the Nazi dictatorship and widely believed to have been contrived by the newly formed Nazi government itself to turn public opinion against its opponents and to assume emergency powers. Hitler had secured the chancellorship after the elections of November 1932, but his Nazi Party had not won an overall majority. He therefore obtained Cabinet consent to fix new elections for March 5, 1933. Meanwhile, his propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels, is supposed to have devised the scheme whereby 10 agents led by Karl Ernst were to gain access to the Reichstag through a tunnel leading from the official residence of Hermann Goring, Reichstag president and Hitler's chief minister, who was then to conduct an official investigation, which would fix responsibility for the fire on the Communists. The supposed arsonist was a Dutchman, Marinus van der Lubbe, whom some have claimed was brought to the scene of the crime by Nazi agents. Others have contended that there was no proof of Nazi complicity in the crime, but that Hitler merely capitalized on van der Lubbe's independent act. The fire is the subject of continued debate and research.
On Feb. 28, 1933, the day after the fire, Hitler's dictatorship began with the enactment of a decree "for the Protection of the People and the State," which dispensed with all constitutional protection of political, personal, and property rights. Though the ensuing elections still did not give the Nazis an outright majority, they were able to persuade the Reichstag to pass an Enabling Act (March 23) whereby all its legislative powers were transferred to the Reich Cabinet by a vote of 444 to 94, so sanctioning the dictatorship. A feature of the ensuing arson trial, at which van der Lubbe was convicted, was the acquittal of the Bulgarian Communist Georgi Dimitrov after a strong defense.
[CN -- See also: Tobias, Fritz, The Reichstag Fire, trans. by A.J. Pomerans (1964)]
Coming to you from Illinois -- "The Land of Skolnick"